Blending arms and pivot

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leon

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I'm really struggling with this and would be grateful for some advice. My swing is all pivot, with arms dragged way inside & low. I'm trying to get more straight back and up with the arms, but when I do this I can't help but slide my hips & reverse pivot.

Any suggestions how I can get the right feel for lifting my hands whilst still turning my hips?

Cheers.
 

natep

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Personally I never make any attempt to lift my arms on the backswing, and I have a pretty upright swing. My arms are lifted by my pivot and the momentum it provides.

At address you have a certain amount of tilt towards the ball. As you start turning in your backswing, you have to start leaning left as you turn right in order to maintain this spine angle to the ball. By this I mean your left ribcage gets closer to your left hip while you turn away from the ball.

This tilt and turn lifts my left arm past parallel without any effort from the arms, and as I continue turning the momentum of the clubhead pulls my arms the rest of the way to the top.

I should add that I have an active pivot with most of my weight on the right side at the top of the backswing with my left heel off the ground.

One of the best tips I ever got was to never lift either shoulder joint assembly during the swing, in the way you would if you were shrugging your shoulders, in an attempt to lift the arms.

Anyway, hope this helps. I'm not an instructor so this is just my $0.02
 
Leon, make sure your eye line doesn't get tilted back toward the target too much on the backswing and you'll be less likely to slide your hips to the right as your arms hinge up.

Good ballstrikers always have their eye-line pointed more to the right of their hip-line than choppers (what this essentially means is that good players can have their hips actively opening to the target as their clubhead approaches the ball from the inside).

And, remember, the best way to hinge your arms up is to feel like you are doing it with the right forearm/elbow. No shoulder shrugging, as nate pointed out.

So, eyes pointing down and to the right, as right elbow hinges up.
 

natep

New
Leon, make sure your eye line doesn't get tilted back toward the target too much on the backswing and you'll be less likely to slide your hips to the right as your arms hinge up.

Good ballstrikers always have their eye-line pointed more to the right of their hip-line than choppers (what this essentially means is that good players can have their hips actively opening to the target as their clubhead approaches the ball from the inside).

And, remember, the best way to hinge your arms up is to feel like you are doing it with the right forearm/elbow. No shoulder shrugging, as nate pointed out.

So, eyes pointing down and to the right, as right elbow hinges up.

^^this
 
leon,

How about a video of your swing from down the line and face on.

For me this has always been an issue with my swing.

Matt
 
I've always had a tendency to swing too flat on the back swing and there was a section at the very end of the building blocks video that helped. Brian suggested reviewing / learning what each part of the body did individually (body/arms/wrists) in the swing and then blending them all together. Later I learned this as a TGM concept. In any event, to learn where I wanted the arms, I went in front of a mirror and simulated a swing that wasn't so flat. Then, without moving my arms from their position at the top, I returned to addressing the ball (took away the pivot). Turned out that my arms basically went up to a point just outside my back shoulder. The key was the arms moved up, not really back; the pivot moved the arms back. Then I just practiced what this "up" felt like until it became a more natural feeling and then I blended it with the pivot. This process helped a lot. The result also reduced my tendency to pull the club too far to the inside on the back swing. Don't know if this helps, but the process was the key for me. Maybe others who teach can add / help with the correct technique fix for your swing after they watch some video. The idea is that what we "feel" we are doing is not always "real" or what we are actually doing...so we need to learn what correct technique feels like, which will be different for each person.
 
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Would it not be ok to actively move the arms up while bending the back elbow with the pivot assisting?
 
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I lot of great swings have had the club slightly under the plane to start with, but I think I know what you are talking about and it can lead to problems later on if it is overdone. I found this video from David Orr useful, in particular his 'warchant' concept:

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTJMTxQsy40[/media]

I've had some success with this feeling like the right arm hinges up from the elbow staying more infront of the body where it previously moved a lot more inside, deeper and independent from the pivot in my swing. In Brian-speak, this feels more "up the wall" per Never Hook Again.

All personal opinion from my messing around with this kind of thing. A video of your swing and description of your bad shots will give the better informed here more of a chance to help you out.

As Quigss says, 'unwinding the pivot' is useful and I have used this in the past to essentially isolate the arm action in the swing to work what it feels like I need to do.
 

ej20

New
I'm really struggling with this and would be grateful for some advice. My swing is all pivot, with arms dragged way inside & low. I'm trying to get more straight back and up with the arms, but when I do this I can't help but slide my hips & reverse pivot.

Any suggestions how I can get the right feel for lifting my hands whilst still turning my hips?

Cheers.

Without seeing your swing,I would be be guessing that your shoulder pivot is too flat at the start of your swing.At the point where your left arm is parallel to the ground,the right arm should be slightly above the left arm.From here you can flatten the shoulder turn or keep it steep depending on the pattern that works for you.
 

leon

New
Thanks - who knew golf was so hard!

Thanks to all who replied. After all of the heavy going "science" related threads its nice to talk golf swings and heartening to see how giving and positive people can be! Some responses:

Leon, make sure your eye line doesn't get tilted back toward the target too much on the backswing and you'll be less likely to slide your hips to the right as your arms hinge up.

Good ballstrikers always have their eye-line pointed more to the right of their hip-line than choppers (what this essentially means is that good players can have their hips actively opening to the target as their clubhead approaches the ball from the inside).

And, remember, the best way to hinge your arms up is to feel like you are doing it with the right forearm/elbow. No shoulder shrugging, as nate pointed out.

So, eyes pointing down and to the right, as right elbow hinges up.

Sorry Virtuoso but I don't quite get this. When you say eyeline tilted back towards the target on backswing, do you mean head tilted with right ear towards right shoulder (like Brain says 'water out the right ear' in NHA)? And can you explain eyeline to the right of the hip line (what do you mean by hip line?) I think I'm just missing some terminology.

I've always had a tendency to swing too flat on the back swing and there was a section at the very end of the building blocks video that helped. Brian suggested reviewing / learning what each part of the body did individually (body/arms/wrists) in the swing and then blending them all together. Later I learned this as a TGM concept. In any event, to learn where I wanted the arms, I went in front of a mirror and simulated a swing that wasn't so flat. Then, without moving my arms from their position at the top, I returned to addressing the ball (took away the pivot). Turned out that my arms basically went up to a point just outside my back shoulder. The key was the arms moved up, not really back; the pivot moved the arms back. Then I just practiced what this "up" felt like until it became a more natural feeling and then I blended it with the pivot. This process helped a lot. The result also reduced my tendency to pull the club too far to the inside on the back swing. Don't know if this helps, but the process was the key for me. Maybe others who teach can add / help with the correct technique fix for your swing after they watch some video. The idea is that what we "feel" we are doing is not always "real" or what we are actually doing...so we need to learn what correct technique feels like, which will be different for each person.

Quiggs, I think this is exactly my problem. Really flat shoulder turn pulling hands way inside. I'm so flat that I have to pretty much "stand up" at the top of the backswing to allow my spin to line up with the shoulders. The unwinding idea is in NHA as well and is a good one, thanks. Kind of like a drill I remember from a Jim Flick book where he has you put the club over your right shoulder, turn to the top, then just push your hands up (but in reverse).

Without seeing your swing,I would be be guessing that your shoulder pivot is too flat at the start of your swing.At the point where your left arm is parallel to the ground,the right arm should be slightly above the left arm.From here you can flatten the shoulder turn or keep it steep depending on the pattern that works for you.

Yep ej20, real flat. My right arm is easily below left at the left arm parallel position.

I didn't post a swing vid because I don't have anything of me hitting balls, just practice swings in my garden (I'm waiting for light evenings again next year before I buy a practice net). Plus I wouldn't want to be responsible for the effect my swing might have on those of a weak disposition! :)

Based on some of the suggestions and my own thoughts previously, I bought NHA2 and a lot of what Brian describesat the start fits my swing - flat shoulders, body leaning WAY right in the backswing, strong grip with a flip to square the face, sharp inside hip turn (I could probably go on :( ).

Anyway, I worked on getting more "up the wall" at the range today and the backswing looked better (we have mirrors behind some of the bays at my range, so you can kind of check your swing from down the line, which is real useful, if not that precise). I hit the ball much lower (I usually hit everything way high, like 5 irons higher than my friends hit wedges! I'm guessing this is due to a major flip). Contact was a bit thin which would explain some of the lowering (and hopefully the loss of distance I had), but I think some of it was due to my improved swing. I'm also working on the Manzella neutral grip as I mine is way too strong (although I don't think I'm getting it under the heel pad correctly). I still need to figure out left arm wedge rotation as I currently have none, and then I might be in some sort of respectable top of the backswing position.

Then all I need to figure out is the downswing!! :D
 

natep

New
If you have a really flat shoulder turn and are leaning way right at the top, then you need to maintain your spine angle to the ball more. At setup your spine is bent forward, and if you maintain this forward spine bend and turn right you will be leaning over to the right.

If you keep your body tilted at the same angle to the ball throughout the swing, you will actually have leftward spine bend at the top of your swing, not forward spine bend like at address. The spine has to swivel as the hips turn back in order to maintain your angle to the ball.
 
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