Body Rotation and Back-to-Target

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c21heel

c21heel

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There's seems to be a lot of emphasis lately on body rotation as both a source of power and the primary way to close the clubface on the downswing.

But, I seem to hit the ball better when I keep my back to the target as long as possible during the downswing...certainly helps me draw the ball.

Am I misunderstanding the concept?
 
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MizunoJoe

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If you are swinging the arms down independently of the shoulder rotation that is not what you should be doing. It can produce a draw, but it's a leakage hook as #4 Accum is being thrown away. Shoulder rotation alone should move the arms, and the shoulders must be open at impact. This has been discussed here several times before.

To make things worse, there are well known instructors(non-TGM) who actually teach this illusion.
 
c21heel

c21heel

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MizunoJoe, I'm not trying to swing my arms independently, but trying to time my shoulders and arms a little better. I think you have to be careful with how you apply body rotation on the downswing. It seems to me that if you get too quick with the upper body, you can force the club above the plane, which ultimately results in an over-the-top move.

And, apparently, I misunderstood power accumulator #4. It only seems logical to me that if the shoulders out run the arms, you can never fully apply accumulator #4. I always imagined the arms exploding off the chest to maximize #4, but I don't see how this can happen properly with an overly aggressive body rotation.
 
Garth

Garth

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Nicklaus used that as a thought to make sure he finished his backswing. He still kept his arms and hands passive on the way down.
 
c21heel

c21heel

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I took it that he meant the downswing. I'll dig out the issue of Golf Digest where he mentioned it to clarify and then post back here when I find it.
 
c21heel

c21heel

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Found the issue, but my memory was not 100% accurate, but sorta close. The article was from April 2004 (All I know, my secrets of a lifetime), so be easy on me.

Quotes...

"If you slice, try keeping your left shoulder stationary on the downswing. If won't stay stiff, of course, but will stop you from spinning your shoulders to the left and coming over the top."

"Here is another anti-slicing tip: On the downswing, your goal is to achieve impact before placket (buttons on shirt) returns to position it was at address."

Golf Digest, April 2004.
 
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MizunoJoe

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quote:Originally posted by c21heel

Found the issue, but my memory was not 100% accurate, but sorta close. The article was from April 2004 (All I know, my secrets of a lifetime), so be easy on me.

Quotes...

"If you slice, try keeping your left shoulder stationary on the downswing. If won't stay stiff, of course, but will stop you from spinning your shoulders to the left and coming over the top."

"Here is another anti-slicing tip: On the downswing, your goal is to achieve impact before placket (buttons on shirt) returns to position it was at address."

Golf Digest, April 2004.
Click to expand...

These two pieces of advice are good reasons to quit reading GD. The left shoulder should be moving up and back at impact, just like Jack does in spite of his bad advice for slicers. You should be spinning your shoulders(the flywheel) as fast as possible in the right direction within the constraints of Rhythmn and Balance.
 
c21heel

c21heel

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MizunoJoe, I don't think that Golf Digest is totally worthless, but I certainly don't read it much anymore. Besides, even if I did, I'm not sure there would be anything new as the magazine tends to repeat itself.

You say I should be spinning the flywheel in the right direction...maybe that is where I'm confused. How do you spin the flywheel without creating an over-the-top move?
 
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Non-AuthorizedTGM

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Back to the target .....one of the worst swing thoughts in the history of golfdom...Try maintaining your pivot lag.....shoulders to hips.....during start down.....
 
vandal

vandal

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Well MJ, I know that when I have a thought of spinning my shoulders anywhere during a swing that swing is long lost.
 
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cdog

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C2, that drill (back to target swinging down with arms as you described) is NOT a bad drill, or swinging procedure.........for the RIGHT person.

In fact it was the MAIN drill that helped Art Sellinger become a long drive champion.
Art and his coach did a 1 hour Golf Academy show on this drill alone.
Art couldnt stop slicing it, big long ballooning drives, and the reason for it was a bad pivot.
You would think a man with his athletic ability could control his shoulders and move them correctly, he COULDNT! He could not attack the ball on the rear inside coordinate, so he started doing this to quit comming over the top.

All that being said he and his coach did i say they would not give this drill to so and so (he started naming pro's and very good ball strikers), he said this drill would help a person that like himself that couldn't attack on plane from the inside.

I remember it so well because it was my first yr golfing, and i sliced so bad i couldnt keep a ball in play even with short irons, and i didnt know why. I tried it and couldnt believe how it helped change my direction. I still didnt know why at the time but it sure gave me hope.
Now after tons of reading and studying, i know why it helped, and i also understand why several on here say its terrible advice, and i will say it can be bad advice, OR it could help some people attack the ball from the insdie better and start to get them to understand swinging on plane.
 
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MizunoJoe

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Guys - it's the WRONG WAY to quit slicing. You can also get the clubhead to come from the inside by throwing away #2(wristcock). Throwaway of #2 and/or #4 isn't the answer.

Listen to NonAuthTGM. Where are all the AIs? - they will listen to you(maybe).
 
c21heel

c21heel

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Cdog, the drill worked great for me too. If I have one swing fault that I constantly fight, it is an over-the-top move. I've tried focusing on the "inside quadrant of the golf ball" and "swinging under the stick." But, nothing works better than feeling that my back stays to the target just a "little" longer on the downswing. I don't freeze my back, but slow it down just a little. And, I finish in perfect balance.

Last night on the range, I picked up 15 yards with the Irons and 30 yards with the Driver.

If someone can convert "back-to-target" into something TGM related, I'll switch in a hearbeat. But to this point, I haven't seen, heard or understood anything better.
 
c21heel

c21heel

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My brain is running a thousand miles a minute trying to figure this out...

Could keeping my back to the target a little longer actually be a bandaid fix for a shoulder routing problem on the downswing?

If I were to rotate the shoulders too horizontally, that might explain the over-the-top move. I could see how Body Rotation might work if the shoulders were employed more vertically.

Or, am I headed down the wrong road?
 
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MizunoJoe

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quote:Originally posted by c21heel

My brain is running a thousand miles a minute trying to figure this out...

Could keeping my back to the target a little longer actually be a bandaid fix for a shoulder routing problem on the downswing?

If I were to rotate the shoulders too horizontally, that might explain the over-the-top move. I could see how Body Rotation might work if the shoulders were employed more vertically.

Or, am I headed down the wrong road?
Click to expand...

YES - you need to crank your flywheel in the right direction with the right shoulder moving downplane rather than outward. :)
 
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Non-AuthorizedTGM

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c21heel...


Do you have enough hip slide to establish Axis Tilt to permit the Right Shoulder to stay back and down on the plane angle?....Other wise try a delayed pivot where the shoulders lead the hips in the backstroke and the hips lead the shoulder during the downstroke.....I usually don't like discussing pivot correction....because usually it's something much more involved like the power package or "uneducated hands".....post a video clip of your swing and we'll all try to give you an opinion!!!!



NAT
 
c21heel

c21heel

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MizunoJoe, great point. Looking at Brian's logo, the left shoulder is certainly higher than the right at impact. And, it's that way on every PGA tour-player swing sequence that I've looked at this morning.

Non-authorized TGM, I don't think I have uneducated hands as I can work the ball pretty well using the various hinges. But, I do believe that I have uneducated shoulders. I'll certainly consider posting a video soon.

How do all of you visualize the shoulders working? Up? Towards right field and up?
 
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