Brian Manzella for Golf Magazine, Golf.com & FRONT9 - Justin Rose's Right Arm Move

[wulsy]

Thanks for the link to the video nate and to Bman for the clarification.

Bman, is there a correlation between the actual functional swing plane and the lower, middle and upper back positions earlier in the downswing? Or can you still for example have a more vertical functional plane when you a coming from a lower back postion and vice versa?

Also is there a correlation between the path (as measured by TM) and the fuctional swing plane? If so what is it?

For example, are these combinations possible?:

1. low back, steep functional plane, rightward path (in-to-out)
2. low back, flat functional plane, rightward path
3. low back, flat functional plane, leftward path
3. low back, steep functional plane, leftward path

How does the functional plane concept differ from the VSP concept?

 

[Brian Manzella]

At the time of the video, I was calling it the "EVENTUAL SWING PLANE."

This is because the club really isn't on any plane until it "eventually" gets on a plane.

"The planar nature of the swing has been vastly overstated." —Michael Jacobs

So Haney may have been onto something.

Not really.

He missed the whole 2nd phase of the swing. Ask Sam Randolph.

There are a lot of pros who preached plane.

Yup.

Stating with Seymour Dunn in 1922.

...What ultimately matters is what the plane looks like during the second half of the downswing / post-impact.

Yes sir.

That's the point of Tuxen's research and the Kwon paper.

Why not call it the dynamic lie angle plane?

Well, because the plane that you "eventually" swing on DOES NOT have to be the dynamic lie angle.

Happens all the time on Trackman.

 

[Kevin Shields]

I've always thought the downswing was two phases and the laid off, vertical hand path tumblers were doing something more correct but never wanted to paint myself in a corner. There are plenty who do it the other way. Just watching Greg Norman vs Nick Faldo in 1996, you knew one didn't stand a chance if it came down to repeat ability of swing under the gun.

 

[lia41985]

How does the functional plane concept differ from the VSP concept?

Great question!

 

[lia41985]

Well, because the plane that you "eventually" swing on DOES NOT have to be the dynamic lie angle.

Happens all the time on Trackman.

Thanks for your reply.

A question I had was does this non-correspondence between VSP and dynamic lie angle have to do with the way that the shaft's function (e.g. droop and lead) affects the VSP reading...or...? Does dynamic lie angle take into account these shaft affects?

 

[Lindsey Newman]

If anyone thinks you can just slap any old backswing on and then fix it all on the way down they are sorely mistaken. Remember, this downswing happens in a blink of an eye and you gotta hit the ball with some speed. If your just gonna cruise one out there then maybe you fix it a little on the way down, but not for maximum performance. There is a reason Furyk hits a "fizzle".

 

[spktho]

If anyone thinks you can just slap any old backswing on and then fix it all on the way down they are sorely mistaken. Remember, this downswing happens in a blink of an eye and you gotta hit the ball with some speed. If your just gonna cruise one out there then maybe you fix it a little on the way down, but not for maximum performance. There is a reason Furyk hits a "fizzle".

Absolutely, and not just with the backswing of the arms and club. I'm finding, through the help of you guys and Michael Jacob's forum, that body positioning is huge too. Get the parts right to the top of the backswing and the downswing is sooo much easier.

 

[Lifter]

If anyone thinks you can just slap any old backswing on and then fix it all on the way down they are sorely mistaken. Remember, this downswing happens in a blink of an eye and you gotta hit the ball with some speed. If your just gonna cruise one out there then maybe you fix it a little on the way down, but not for maximum performance. There is a reason Furyk hits a "fizzle".

You know what drives me absolutely nuts? Teachers who, for your first five lessons, focus first and foremost on the takeaway and insist that you must make it absolutely perfect (by his particular definition) before you can move on to anything else.

 

[Lifter]

I've always thought the downswing was two phases and the laid off, vertical hand path tumblers were doing something more correct but never wanted to paint myself in a corner. There are plenty who do it the other way. Just watching Greg Norman vs Nick Faldo in 1996, you knew one didn't stand a chance if it came down to repeat ability of swing under the gun.

This "vertical hand path" phrase is really bothering me. Way too vague! What Kevin really means is (1) during 1st half of downswing, fairly horizontal hand path and (2) during 2nd half of downswing, fairly vertical hand path.

But obviously that requires too many words. So what should we use instead? "Convex," maybe?

 

[wulsy]

No necessarily Lifter, IMO. It could be vertical, concave or convex and still be optimal.

 

[Lindsey Newman]

You know what drives me absolutely nuts? Teachers who, for your first five lessons, focus first and foremost on the takeaway and insist that you must make it absolutely perfect (by his particular definition) before you can move on to anything else.

I am not saying that you have to be "perfect".

 

[Kevin Shields]

This "vertical hand path" phrase is really bothering me. Way too vague! What Kevin really means is (1) during 1st half of downswing, fairly horizontal hand path and (2) during 2nd half of downswing, fairly vertical hand path.

But obviously that requires too many words. So what should we use instead? "Convex," maybe?

You may call it whatever you want. To be clear, that is absolutely, positively NOT what I mean. There is no fairly horizontal hand path in the first stage. If anything, it would be horizontal in the 2 nd stage when tumble forces are applied. Horizontal perhaps from face on but not DTL.

How's this for a description.....Straight F!$#?!n down!!

Just curious what's too vague. I'd be glad to clear it up while I spend most of my time these days watching cartoons with my kids. SpongeBob turns my brain to more mush than it already is.

 

[ekennedy]

You know what drives me absolutely nuts? Teachers who, for your first five lessons, focus first and foremost on the takeaway and insist that you must make it absolutely perfect (by his particular definition) before you can move on to anything else.

I find that this is an excellent way to sell a 6 lesson package with an option for a 7th.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Once everything is moving forward (transition is over) you rarely see a good player with a hand path that doesn't go out as it goes down.

 

[Kevin Shields]

Once everything is moving forward (transition is over) you rarely see a good player with a hand path that doesn't go out as it goes down.

But it only goes out because you lose a bit of stored rotation from he DTL perspective.

 

[Matt Bryda]

But it only goes out because you lose a bit of stored rotation from he DTL perspective.

Stored rotation or forward bend look decreasing?

 

[Kevin Shields]

Stored rotation or forward bend look decreasing?

Could be both I guess but the point is the hands are going down