Brian - Success Criteria and Prognosis

[Loubert]

quote:Originally posted by brianman

"Jim does not give private lessons to handicap players, other than his kids."

I do.

Brian,

I am interested in what your teaching experience has taught you about the level of improvement possible for handicapped players of different strata.

Whenever, I've asked PGA teaching pros "what is the best level you think I can achieve with what you've seen so far?" I always get something to the effect of "we can definitely help you enjoy the game more." They must teach this line in the PGA classes, because I see it on the internet all the time as well.

When a 30/40-ish 20+ index player who's been at the game for 5-10 years shows up for a lesson and you see a wild flipper, what is the prognosis? Not what you necessarily tell the student, but what do you really think?

Is your view altered depending on the number of time a week they practice/play? Does the number of prior lessons matter in your assessment?

Thanks,
Lou

I'm also interested in any other pro opinions out there.

 

[hue]

Loubert, No point in pondering the imponderables. Take a lesson with Brian work on what he says and watch the results. He knows what he is doing and gets straight to the point. I know I am a hell of a lot better because of his input at Canton. I had a 3 under PB at my home course this week and have got a lot longer and straighter. I don't know what my potential is but I do know I am improving as a direct result of Brian's input. I am not interested in how good I will get only in doing the work . The results are a product of the work but you need good information to make the work productive. Brian will give you that information. He is very very good at his job.

 

[Loubert]

Hue, thanks for writing. With three kids at home under the age of five, I won't have the opportunity to travel to see Brian anytime soon. If, however, there is enough interest in the SF bay area to have Brian out for one of his private schools, I would be the first to sign up for some time.

But, as for pondering the imponderables, that is really all I have. I am in the process of taking lessons from one of the best pros in my area (I've taken two). In reading Brian's and other golf forums over the years, I've come to realize that the better players, like yourself, don't really understand what it is like to be a hacker.

I don't mean this to be a criticism. I envy you, but a lesson for a hacker goes like this. You show up, summon your courage to show your horrible swing to an expert, and then wait. With a good teacher, they spot your fault immediately. It is always something major. Then they take you through the explanantions and drills and feels to do it right.

If you get it, you look at yourself on the video and say, that looks good. If not, you look like that poor guy in the Ben Doyle video at Lynn's site.* But then you leave and you're on your own. Eventually, you drift downward back into your old habits. If you didn't, you would be a mid-handicap, not a high one.

Now, I will keep plugging along. I'm addicted. I just trust Brian's opinion because he will tell it to me straight. For some, an 18 index would be the worst thing in the world, for me it would be a huge milestone.

Thanks again.
Lou

* I secretly wonder if Ben chose those videos to put out there to disuade hackers from coming to see him. Even though I live in Ben's area, I would never consider a lesson with him after seeing those tapes.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

Ben Doyle is in California....not sure how far away but closer than brian

 

[Steve Khatib]

You have misconceptions about Ben Doyle. Did you know that people have travelled thousands of miles more to see him, more than to see any other coach (including myself eight times). If you commit to regular lessons you will improve however unmonitored one off quick fixes are a waste of time. Give it 2 years and about $5000 and the princple of G.O.L.F. will be with you. Ben gives his students a lot because he says he is planting ideas that act as time bombs that will go off eventually- this is called incubation.

Sure talent and physical fitness helps, but ultimately attitude is the most important ingredient, being able to trust your instructor and follow his lead and not take tips from friends or digest or golf channel that will send you off track. Golf is a game for thinkers and my best students are not the most gifted but are the most commited and the most logical.

I know that Brian has taught some compltely unco powder puffs to stress it, compress it and wallop it!
So establish a plan a goal and time frame, trust an instructor and get to work.

 

[hue]

quote:Originally posted by FOUR BARRELS AUSTRALIAN

. Ben gives his students a lot because he says he is planting ideas that act as time bombs that will go off eventually- this is called incubation.

You are right there. Ben's style is very interesting. He got me doing things in the bunker that I did not fully understand at the time. Later I noticed I was doing the things he taught me without realising I was doing it. It was like a delayed reaction. With the benefit of hindsight I would say that his bunker sessions are the most powerful way of dehacking a hacker.
I was going through my old video tapes the other day and watching the 1995 Masters on 16 Jack Nicklaus was walking off the green and something got my attention in the crowd behind him. I replayed the tape and there was Ben Doyle with a TGM book in his hand. I don't know if anyone has seen this but I am going to run off a copy and send it to Ben.

 

[wanole]

I would say if you are "afraid" of what Ben wants you to do then you aren't really willing to do what it takes to get any better. He's not there to humiliate you, but to ingrain in you what you need to do to get to where you want to be.

I am not trying to be an ass, but you want to get better and you have the avenue right in your backyard yet you won't go down it because it's embarrassing? To much time? Trouble? What?

It's all about how bad you really want to get better and if you are going to do what it takes. That is the question you need to ask yourself, rather than how good you can be. You will never know and nobody will ever be able to tell you until you try. If this game was so easy and every "pro" could really teach then the average person wouldn't be shooting 100.

Are you willing to have the patience and determination with Ben to get better?

 

[Vaako]

Pro opinion from the pro I used to take an odd lesson back in my pre-TGM days when I had more time in my hands:

"Any healthy adult male can reach HCP index of 4"

This came up in casual conversation a few times and - unfortunately - I didn't push the subject. So, can give no exact details what this requires practise-wise.

These casual conversations usually de-graded in a debate about how far you have to hit the ball to make it to high singles.*


Vaako


* 150 meters

 

[jeffy]

quote:Originally posted by Loubert

Hue, thanks for writing. With three kids at home under the age of five, I won't have the opportunity to travel to see Brian anytime soon.

Lou-

Stop torturing yourself: you are about to enter the best years of your life raising your children. My two boys are now 16 and 12 and are increasingly doing things on their own rather than wanting me to be with them at baseball, playing catch, the movies, whatever. I used to expend a lot of effort to try to make time for myself on the golf course, but now would gladly trade alot of it back for more time with the kids growing up. If I were you, I'd get down to Carmel once or twice a season to work with Ben, letting him know your time limitations on play and practice. Then, in about 10 years, get serious about this great game. But, for now, don't add needless pressure to your life by trying to get good when you have a career and family to look after.

Jeff

 

[Brian Manzella]

Loubert: "I am interested in what your teaching experience has taught you about the level of improvement possible for handicapped players of different strata?"

If you give me an athletic guy under 50, I can make 'him' a single-digit about 70% of the time. But 99% of the time I can make 'him' HIT IT like a single digit.

Now, some of those guys can get BELOW scratch and some will never get below 85, but I can max them ALL out if:

They totally commit to the 'program.'

Most won't. They will want an easier way. They will wacth the Golf Channel and get rabbit ears. They will listen to 3rd assistant pros and low handicap pals.

As far as the NON-athletes and the guys with the slowing down of age?

There is a guy named Alton Doody. He is a world-class business man. He was a 120 shooter. He took 47 lessons in a 6-month period. He could nearly break 90 on a 113 slope course when we were done.

If he wasn't into 1000 other thing and would have taken 12 lessons a year for the (next) last 10 years, he would be a solid 10-14 handicap.


"Whenever, I've asked PGA teaching pros "what is the best level you think I can achieve with what you've seen so far?" I always get something to the effect of "we can definitely help you enjoy the game more." They must teach this line in the PGA classes, because I see it on the internet all the time as well.

When a 30/40-ish 20+ index player who's been at the game for 5-10 years shows up for a lesson and you see a wild flipper, what is the prognosis? Not what you necessarily tell the student, but what do you really think?"

He is usually doing things I can fix in a couple of hours and I just DIVE IN! If he really tries, he can get 10 shots better in a couple of months.


"Is your view altered depending on the number of time a week they practice/play? Does the number of prior lessons matter in your assessment?"

About 10 minutes a day every other day+one bucket of balls a week+one round a week is PLENTY.

Of course, more is better if they do wjat I tell them.

"Thanks, Lou"

You are very welcome.

 

[Loubert]

quote:Originally posted by FOUR BARRELS AUSTRALIAN

You have misconceptions about Ben Doyle. Did you know that people have travelled thousands of miles more to see him, more than to see any other coach (including myself eight times).

4BA, I should have put a smiley on my footnote. I know that Ben Doyle is a world-class coach who is very well-respected and dedicated to getting the most of his students.

Thanks for the advice in the rest of your post.

Lou

 

[Loubert]

quote:Originally posted by wanole

I would say if you are "afraid" of what Ben wants you to do then you aren't really willing to do what it takes to get any better. He's not there to humiliate you, but to ingrain in you what you need to do to get to where you want to be.

I am not trying to be an ass, but you want to get better and you have the avenue right in your backyard yet you won't go down it because it's embarrassing? To much time? Trouble? What?

Instead of "fear" or "embarrasment," my issue would be "frustration." As a student, I understand myself pretty well.

Some students can really flourish with a no-compromise first principals approach. Others need a more out of the box method that navigates around their mental or physical roadblocks. I am in the latter category, whereas Ben Doyle seems to teach to the former.

Lou

 

[Loubert]

quote:Originally posted by jeffy

quote:Originally posted by Loubert

Hue, thanks for writing. With three kids at home under the age of five, I won't have the opportunity to travel to see Brian anytime soon.

Lou-

Stop torturing yourself: you are about to enter the best years of your life raising your children. My two boys are now 16 and 12 and are increasingly doing things on their own rather than wanting me to be with them at baseball, playing catch, the movies, whatever. I used to expend a lot of effort to try to make time for myself on the golf course, but now would gladly trade alot of it back for more time with the kids growing up. If I were you, I'd get down to Carmel once or twice a season to work with Ben, letting him know your time limitations on play and practice. Then, in about 10 years, get serious about this great game. But, for now, don't add needless pressure to your life by trying to get good when you have a career and family to look after.

Jeff

Jeffy, is my wife paying you? Thanks for the perspective.

Lou

 

[Brian Manzella]

Ben is Ben, thank God, becuase nobody else does it how he does it.

Brian Manzella is quite different in approach, but a lot like Ben with talented players PATTERNS.

 

[6bee1dee]

Seeing first hand how Brian teaches. I would have to say I would trust Brian with any level golfer I brought to him, from a high HC to a promising college kid. Why? HE CARES.

Brian would never let a student down/

Now, Ben is Ben. Love the guy. But that tape, I have seen so many of them, was not the best tape I ever saw. BUT... being a student of Ben Doyle requires a commitment on the behalf of the student far greater than with any other instructor. Ben teaches everybody from joe hacker to Elkington the same thing. So if you are serious the Ben should be the man to see.

Two words about Ben: Mike Finney. Mike is like a clone. Beautiful and disciplined.

 

[birdie_man]

He teaches everyone the same you say...

Does that mean the same swing? Or the same method of teaching?

[edit] Oh NM....I just remembered Brian saying something like: "Ben is a shoot for the moon teacher (tries for what he feels is the highest-performance swing...if there is such a thing), but will settle for less."

*Bold stuff is by me.

 

[6bee1dee]

Same everything. Same lesson, same way.. all the time. Head for the bunker...not for sand shots but for the test. Busting the walls of China. Plastic water bottles- #1 training aid, even the label.

Lynn is Yoda...Ben is Lawrence of Arabia. He lives in bunkers. Where's Ben? "In the bunker."

Ben sees a perfection. He teaches that perfection, why teach less. Brian on the other hand sees the wobble and eliminates it. Two of the best .. but different.

Ben told Lynn about teaching his students, I shoot for a Maserati but will settle for a Cadillac.

 

[Brian Manzella]

"Ben told Lynn about teaching his students, I shoot for a Maserati but will settle for a Cadillac."

Ben used to say: "I shoot for a Cadillac but will settle for a Buick."

Which tells me: Ben knows he teach better than he used to—always upgrading, every day.

 

[vjcapron]

quote:Originally posted by Loubert
* I secretly wonder if Ben chose those videos to put out there to disuade hackers from coming to see him. Even though I live in Ben's area, I would never consider a lesson with him after seeing those tapes.

Those videos were hard to watch. The one thing I couldn't understand is why Ben didn't have him cock the club up on his backswing. My perception of Doyle as a teacher / communicator plummeted after watching those videos.

He was trying to get the guy to hit down on little chips and pitches with some lag, but he had zero lag to "store" and no "up" in his clubhed to hit "down" with. The student's wrists were totally wooden. Awful stuff.

 

[MizunoJoe]

quote:Originally posted by Loubert

* I secretly wonder if Ben chose those videos to put out there to disuade hackers from coming to see him. Even though I live in Ben's area, I would never consider a lesson with him after seeing those tapes.

Ben keeps telling the student that the solution to flipping is aiming point, but that only makes it worse. He needs to learn how to move the hands with the pivot ONLY and to do that he needs to get his mind OUT of his hands. I had the feeling that student could take the same lesson every day for a year and still not "get it".