Brian. You might want to re-think something you said recently...

[Clearwater]

There's no need for everyone to get all worked up.

The creator of this diagram can barely read! He just wanted a diagram so he made his own.

Don't worry Brian...many of us have laughed at him for the path/face numbers he arbitrarely selected.

Enjoy your seminars everyone.

 

[Brian Manzella]

The FACTS!!!

I once spent a good 20 minutes trying to hit ONE SHOT with a perfectly 11° inside-out path, with, coincidentally, a 6-iron.

I finally hit one, 11° inside-out, and 6° open.

It went toward the target.

BUT, IT WAS THE BIGGEST, UGLIEST, STUPIDEST, CRAZY HOOK YOU EVER SAW.

The TrackMan created "ball flight" graphic shows either the graphic is very wrong or the shot was hit on the toe.

I promise, I'll hit a 6-iron at the GTE 20° inside out and 10 ° open faced, and I'll have EVERY ATTENDEE POST WHAT THEY SAW.

It'll make for some laughs.

 

[adamscot89]

It's ok... we have video now

<object width="640" height="505"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/aOJp6s6ER0w&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/aOJp6s6ER0w&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="505"></embed></object>

Just so nobody gets confused, this video shows absolutely nothing!
1) The camera is not even DTL, therefore...
2) We have no idea where he was aiming and or swinging (path)
3) The ball would have curved more had the wind not influenced it, and we don't know in this case how strong that influence was
4) Anyone with a computer program that draws lines could produce this video while having no idea what really happened during the swing or flight of the ball.

 

[jake2]

Just so nobody gets confused, this video shows absolutely nothing!
1) The camera is not even DTL, therefore...
2) We have no idea where he was aiming and or swinging (path)
3) The ball would have curved more had the wind not influenced it, and we don't know in this case how strong that influence was
4) Anyone with a computer program that draws lines could produce this video while having no idea what really happened during the swing or flight of the ball.

Even if you cannot really tell for sure where D-plane really would be there, you can still easily see that the plane drawn to the video is not D-plane. Top is too far left and/or up and and bottom looks to me not to be far enough right (almost directly below).

 

[jaridyard]

The TrackMan created "ball flight" graphic shows either the graphic is very wrong or the shot was hit on the toe.

Oops again right there Brian, balls hit on the toe draw more, even with an iron, search for the player numbers I kindly posted elsewhere in the forum for evidence of that. I look forward to seeing your 10º/20º shot with a six iron, is it a possibility that you might be overlooking the extremely low spin produced by these numbers? The very reason a shot hit with these numbers comes in so hot is also the reason it doesn't curve as much as you would assume?

Just so nobody gets confused, this video shows absolutely nothing!
1) The camera is not even DTL, therefore...
2) We have no idea where he was aiming and or swinging (path)
3) The ball would have curved more had the wind not influenced it, and we don't know in this case how strong that influence was
4) Anyone with a computer program that draws lines could produce this video while having no idea what really happened during the swing or flight of the ball.

1)Ok...
2)Do we need to know where he was aiming to predict the tilt of the plane?
3) We don't know the spin rate so the amount of curve is unpredictable anyway, just as in every D-Plane still picture we see which according to your logic also show nothing.
4)The flight is a product of ProTracer, the D-Plane was an approximation based upon flight and the rules that create it with a small amount of user friendliness thrown in to make it understandable.

It shows a D-Plane tilted slightly left with a path right of initial ball flight and a normal to face above and left of the initial flight so is fundamentally correct.

Anyone with a keyboard can sit there and throw stones.

Even if you cannot really tell for sure where D-plane really would be there, you can still easily see that the plane drawn to the video is not D-plane. Top is too far left and/or up and and bottom looks to me not to be far enough right (almost directly below).

Plane is tilted left, you are correct though the top is slightly too high and this was for the purpose of clarity. Truth is the ball would have risen above it sooner but that doesn't make it as clear and understandable.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Oops again right there Brian, balls hit on the toe draw more, even with an iron

You are correct of course.

"Gear Effect"

I was thinking more in line with the cult that started bending everyone's clubs 6° flat to straighten out a WAY RIGHTward path.

I look forward to seeing your 10º/20º shot with a six iron, is it a possibility that you might be overlooking the extremely low spin produced by these numbers?

I can't wait to try.

But I can tell you this, THIS IS AN EXTREMELY goofy path, not used on any tour, or in the championship flight of any club championship.

I will video my swing doing it.

I'll laugh with you.

 

[dsmith2296]

You know I posted 24 six irons here:

drop.io trackman

and many of them had similar swing speed, ball speed and smash factors, but my average spin rate was 7000 and my average maximum height was 27 yds. I recall my best (visually) shot was #14 with a spin rate of 7743 and a carry of 171.

Your spin rate there was under 3000 and your max height was only 16. I only hit two balls that reached a max height less than 20yds and they were both thin skulls.

Just FYI.

 

[Brian Manzella]

You know I posted 24 six irons here:

drop.io trackman

and many of them had similar swing speed, ball speed and smash factors, but my average spin rate was 7000 and my average maximum height was 27 yds. I recall my best (visually) shot was #14 with a spin rate of 7743 and a carry of 171.

Your spin rate there was under 3000 and your max height was only 16. I only hit two balls that reached a max height less than 20yds and they were both thin skulls.

Just FYI.

It was basically a trick shot, Darby.

Why we are talking about it is the first stupid graphic.

 

[dsmith2296]

oh, ok..perhaps I have missed the entire point....which is.......?

 

[GPM1985]

oh, ok..perhaps I have missed the entire point....which is.......?

That the graphic was misguided, ill-informed, and doesn't really prove anything. I think the thread started as an attempt to make Brian eat some crow, and it didn't work out too well.

Brian's contention was that, as pictured, the shot Sergio is show as hitting would be a massive hook. So much so, that to hit that shot he'd have to aim 47 yards left, and use a ball with spikes sticking out of it, 'cause it ain't holdin'.

I think "So what?" is an appropriate response to the first graphic.

 

[ggsjpc]

Gentlemen,

If I may, this all started because of a pic I saw on some player's facebook page after he attended a clinic. I looked at the numbers and said that is not possible, it would hook off the planet(I was wrong of course-thank you jaridyard for showing me).

In the grand scheme of things, I think it comes down to the fact that this pic was designed to be used to explain an idea. The pic is not designed to be a realistic representation of any method nor was it designed to accurately represent what was being displayed in the picture(bad idea in my opinion but I didn't make the pic).

I think there is some consensus that this shot wouldn't do anyone much good nor should they try to do it at any time. In fact, the discussion on whether it's even possible from a square stance with an orthodox ball position hasn't even been discussed.

It's clear that both you guys know a ton and I was the only one wrong thinking the ball would hook way left. Let's just leave it that. John was wrong. Brian and jaridyard were right.

 

[jaridyard]

You are correct of course.
I can't wait to try.

But I can tell you this, THIS IS AN EXTREMELY goofy path, not used on any tour, or in the championship flight of any club championship.

I will video my swing doing it.

I'll laugh with you.

Agreed 100%, the main purpose of the shots was to hit the numbers to see just what would happen, nothing more, nothing less. You openly admitted that you had mis-read the original graphic so fair play there.

dsmith, I assure you the shots were not thin, the extreme relationship between face and path was responsible for the low spin, nothing else. It will be a struggle to get spin above 4000rpm with those numbers, your dynamic loft was 21º mine was 15º, less spin loft produced.

GPM, I have no idea why he would need to aim 47 yards left when the relationship of the numbers would see a ball pitching slightly right of the target line?

Like John said it's not a shot that would do anyone any good and believe it or not it takes just a little talent to hit it pure with those numbers as Brian will demonstrate for you, no doubt well.

It's been fun. If anyone wants a chat at the show drop by the Trackman stand, I'll be wearing a helmet.

 

[Brian Manzella]

GPM, I have no idea why he would need to aim 47 yards left when the relationship of the numbers would see a ball pitching slightly right of the target line?

36 feet to the right, to a green that will require a lot of spin.

So if you aimed 47 yards to the left, and swung 20° to the right of that, a square face will give you a shot a straight ball hole in one.

 

[jaridyard]

Yep. Thought it might have been with reference to a face square to path.

 

[dsmith2296]

dsmith, I assure you the shots were not thin, the extreme relationship between face and path was responsible for the low spin, nothing else. It will be a struggle to get spin above 4000rpm with those numbers, your dynamic loft was 21º mine was 15º, less spin loft produced.

you said "mine"-- I thought those purported T-man numbers were of Sergio Garcia on that Par 3-- not a trick shot you were tinkering around with.

 

[adamscot89]

1)Ok...
2)Do we need to know where he was aiming to predict the tilt of the plane?
3) We don't know the spin rate so the amount of curve is unpredictable anyway, just as in every D-Plane still picture we see which according to your logic also show nothing.
4)The flight is a product of ProTracer, the D-Plane was an approximation based upon flight and the rules that create it with a small amount of user friendliness thrown in to make it understandable.

It shows a D-Plane tilted slightly left with a path right of initial ball flight and a normal to face above and left of the initial flight so is fundamentally correct.

Anyone with a keyboard can sit there and throw stones.

I'm not throwing stones dude, I'm not saying the guy who made the video didn't know anything, just saying that the video doesn't show anything, whether you are an expert or a guesser, the only thing this video shows is a rough estimate. If you had the TM type diagram of the curve and a DTL video of the shot you could easily make the case for the plane that was drawn, but not with what that video has. You do need to know where he was set up and where his path was going and where the true clubface was, which is difficult to find from that angle. The point was that you can't estimate the path based on a poor quality video clip of a guy that hits the ball high trying to hook the ball into the wind, taken from a bad angle. I'm sure that you know a lot about the D-Plane and could run circles around me in a debate about it, but when you got people trying to understand it, it's not useful to show diagrams that are estimates made under circumstances that made it difficult to estimate. That was the point of the post dude, that's why I didn't come out throwing stones or names, I started by saying " just so nobody gets confused," because this place is all about learning.