Brian, your opinion, please...

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dss

New
This is my first post, and , sorry, but I am sure it will be a long one. This is addressed to you, Brian, as I have a lot of respect for your opinion and I understand from reading other posts that you have spent a good deal of time with Ben Doyle. You undoubtedly know the book as well as just about anyone. I am a very humble GSEB, and will be the first to say that my knowledge of TGM has a LONG way to go. But, I have the rest of my life to work on it and I am not on any specific timetable. But, I digress...
A few years ago, before I had the pleasure of studying TGM, I met a fellow at a driving range in Cleveland who was an accomplished ball striker. Also, this fellow happened to have 3 PHD's in engineering, metallurgy and aeronautics. He also was fluent in 5 or 6 languages. He made his living by studying tecnical papers and journals from other countries, translating the findings into English, then advising companies here in the states how these findings might have applications to their production. Impressive? I'd say so... a VERY bright guy. Anyway, I had 'the book', but did not understand it, but he had never heard of it. I asked him if he would like to read it, and he took it back to his apartment that evening (he lived across the road from the DR). He returned it to me THE NEXT DAY, having read it completely the night before. He also left me a short note, which I will quote..."Kelly's book is a sham. If it seems that it contains great, realizable truths about the golf swing, that is because the reader lacks a background in mechanical physics, kinematics, and elements of physical- system modeling and subsequently is easily impressed by Kelly's efforts to clasify discrete (itty-bity) phenomena. If you limit yourself to Kelly's own conceptual framework, you can show the gaps and mistakes in his delineation. Further, when you bring to bear in analysis, understanding of the golf swing milieu beyond Kelly's, his discussion is vapid. If you want insight, save this note and ask me about the following points: (the following are within Kelly's conceptual framework)1) power accumulators: vertebra and ring and middle fingers of right hand (also equal and opposite reactions) 2) Acceleration: m x v = momentum, a = ^v over t 3) gravitational field framework, 4) Radius: scapular articulation 5)Periodicity: time period T of rotational oscillation. 6) Gyroscopic action: continuous, steady state momentum vs. inertia.
The following are beyond Kelly's framework: 1)Swinging vs hitting: arbitrary distinction discounting synergy (leading edge in tension, trailing edge in compression): 2)Big picture: trying to express the spatial nonverbal, analytically. 3) Statics vs dynamics: sensory phenomena associated with low and high angular velocities (weight vs momentum).
Unfortunately, I never had the chance to discuss this with him, as I moved away from Cleveland (thank God!)

Again, this is directed at Brian, but anyone with a scientific background that could decipher some of this, if you would, I would be very grateful.
 

Brian Manzella

Administrator
Great post...

but...

so what?

The Golfing Machine corectly IDENTIFIED the three imperatives.

The ball ONLY knows what the club is doing.

Everything else works around this.

I NEVER really talk about hitting or swinging,,,because I DON'T care.

If you don't use some pulling...you'll be a side-show...at best.

I have my own ideas...

Including a VERY radical idea about PLANE that...I know I am right about and

unlike what EDz would say...is all mine.
 

dss

New
Brian, I am very interested to hear your ideas about 'plane'...please expand, when you have the time...thanks!
 

bts

New
Wish both of them had studied some neuro-muscular biology, which pretty much explains how the body works to RESPOND to the golfer's INTENTION of moving the club by the hands (swinging/hitting the club).

Each undesired golf shot as the result of faulty move(s), can be traced back to the golfer's faulty intention/instinct. Unfortunately, almost all golfers (as well as instructor) literally pay attention to the (downstream) BODY REACTION instead of the original (upstream) INTENTION.

For example, when FOCUSING on "keeping the left wrist flat (or others)", the golfer is trying to "keep the left wrist flat (or others)" rather than "making a golf swing", which is supposed to be either pushing (hitting) or snapping (swinging) the LAGGED/loaded/heavier/pre-stressed club from A to B with the LAG constantly sustained.

Believe it or not, the body is geometrically and physically self-programmed to carry out the task in respond to that INTENTION based on the right knowledge (about a golf shot) and set-up. Again, not sure about if one can carry out a deliberate task with more than one thought.
 
Hmm, it makes it very hard to trust and stick with something when you read comments like that, who am I meant to believe...

I guess I can't doubt the results I see since working with TGM and an AI. Holding the lag and a flat left wrist have definately improved my ball striking.
 
quote:Originally posted by bts

Wish both of them had studied some neuro-muscular biology, which pretty much explains how the body works to RESPOND to the golfer's INTENTION of moving the club by the hands (swinging/hitting the club).

Each undesired golf shot as the result of faulty move(s), can be traced back to the golfer's faulty intention/instinct. Unfortunately, almost all golfers (as well as instructor) literally pay attention to the (downstream) BODY REACTION instead of the original (upstream) INTENTION.

For example, when FOCUSING on "keeping the left wrist flat (or others)", the golfer is trying to "keep the left wrist flat (or others)" rather than "making a golf swing", which is supposed to be either pushing (hitting) or snapping (swinging) the LAGGED/loaded/heavier/pre-stressed club from A to B with the LAG constantly sustained.

Believe it or not, the body is geometrically and physically self-programmed to carry out the task in respond to that INTENTION based on the right knowledge (about a golf shot) and set-up. Again, not sure about if one can carry out a deliberate task with more than one thought.
Just having the knowledge about a correct swing means you will automatically apply it to your golf stroke?

Know need for application? No need to train a new pattern into your system?
 

EdZ

New
quote:Originally posted by brianman

Great post...

but...

so what?

The Golfing Machine corectly IDENTIFIED the three imperatives.

The ball ONLY knows what the club is doing.

Everything else works around this.

I NEVER really talk about hitting or swinging,,,because I DON'T care.

If you don't use some pulling...you'll be a side-show...at best.

I have my own ideas...

Including a VERY radical idea about PLANE that...I know I am right about and

unlike what EDz would say...is all mine.


Well either you already know it isn't original, or you are putting words into my mouth.

So how about describing your views, and having a discussion about them eh?
 

Dr_J

New
I think neuro biologically our brains our programmed to do very athletic movements naturally especially with proper knowledge of the golf swing. The difference with the golf swing is the position you are in creates optical illusions that tricks your brain. The just do what comes natural method never works, I think we all have experienced that.
 
quote:Originally posted by bts

Well, again, believe it or not.

Geez Loiuse, Its called training ! You work on a swing thought, say PP#3, move to another swing thought, once you learned them, they're yours, you can move to another. Lets say improving your straight left wrist at impact. Train those big hands, make them monitor your swing. Training a flat left wrist (the right way) has been the best thing I ever learned. And it’s a golf swing, not bio jumbo Bagger Vance crap, bts.

One more point, EDZ, you aren't original, why are you so bent out of shape about original thought in golf? Learn a swing and enjoy the game.
 

bts

New
quote:Originally posted by 6bee1dee

quote:Originally posted by bts

Well, again, believe it or not.
.......... . And it’s a golf swing, not bio jumbo Bagger Vance crap, bts.
......
That's OK. I know, there are very little people ready for that.

What really needs to be trained is your mind. Good luck for keeping going and going and going and ...........
 

holenone

Banned
quote:Originally posted by dss

This is my first post, and , sorry, but I am sure it will be a long one. This is addressed to you, Brian, as I have a lot of respect for your opinion and I understand from reading other posts that you have spent a good deal of time with Ben Doyle. You undoubtedly know the book as well as just about anyone. I am a very humble GSEB, and will be the first to say that my knowledge of TGM has a LONG way to go. But, I have the rest of my life to work on it and I am not on any specific timetable. But, I digress...
A few years ago, before I had the pleasure of studying TGM, I met a fellow at a driving range in Cleveland who was an accomplished ball striker. Also, this fellow happened to have 3 PHD's in engineering, metallurgy and aeronautics. He also was fluent in 5 or 6 languages. He made his living by studying tecnical papers and journals from other countries, translating the findings into English, then advising companies here in the states how these findings might have applications to their production. Impressive? I'd say so... a VERY bright guy. Anyway, I had 'the book', but did not understand it, but he had never heard of it. I asked him if he would like to read it, and he took it back to his apartment that evening (he lived across the road from the DR). He returned it to me THE NEXT DAY, having read it completely the night before. He also left me a short note, which I will quote..."Kelly's book is a sham. If it seems that it contains great, realizable truths about the golf swing, that is because the reader lacks a background in mechanical physics, kinematics, and elements of physical- system modeling and subsequently is easily impressed by Kelly's efforts to clasify discrete (itty-bity) phenomena. If you limit yourself to Kelly's own conceptual framework, you can show the gaps and mistakes in his delineation. Further, when you bring to bear in analysis, understanding of the golf swing milieu beyond Kelly's, his discussion is vapid. If you want insight, save this note and ask me about the following points: (the following are within Kelly's conceptual framework)1) power accumulators: vertebra and ring and middle fingers of right hand (also equal and opposite reactions) 2) Acceleration: m x v = momentum, a = ^v over t 3) gravitational field framework, 4) Radius: scapular articulation 5)Periodicity: time period T of rotational oscillation. 6) Gyroscopic action: continuous, steady state momentum vs. inertia.
The following are beyond Kelly's framework: 1)Swinging vs hitting: arbitrary distinction discounting synergy (leading edge in tension, trailing edge in compression): 2)Big picture: trying to express the spatial nonverbal, analytically. 3) Statics vs dynamics: sensory phenomena associated with low and high angular velocities (weight vs momentum).
Unfortunately, I never had the chance to discuss this with him, as I moved away from Cleveland (thank God!)

Again, this is directed at Brian, but anyone with a scientific background that could decipher some of this, if you would, I would be very grateful.

Wow! What an 'authoritative,' damning quote. It's late, and there may well be other things that the morrow may bring, but for now, let me say this:

I have studied The Golfing Machine for 25 years -- not 'overnight.' I am no dummy, and while I have no PhD degree, I do have a Bachelors Degree from Georgia Tech. And before my Maker I will unequivocably state that I have yet to find the first thing in The Golfing Machine which, when correctly executed, does not work. Further, I am a far better Ball striker at the ripe old age of 58 than I was at 28. Or 38. Or 48. Today, I actually had a gallery as I striped Tee Shot after Tee Shot beyond the yellow flag at 250 carry. No Hook. No Fade. Just dead Straight.

And I was able to do that because finally, after all these years, I truly understand The Golfing Machine.

Too bad 'Mr. Brilliant' didn't have an extra night for the 'read.'
 

Doug

New
quote:Originally posted by dss

This is my first post, and , sorry, but I am sure it will be a long one. This is addressed to you, Brian, as I have a lot of respect for your opinion and I understand from reading other posts that you have spent a good deal of time with Ben Doyle. You undoubtedly know the book as well as just about anyone. I am a very humble GSEB, and will be the first to say that my knowledge of TGM has a LONG way to go. But, I have the rest of my life to work on it and I am not on any specific timetable. But, I digress...
A few years ago, before I had the pleasure of studying TGM, I met a fellow at a driving range in Cleveland who was an accomplished ball striker. Also, this fellow happened to have 3 PHD's in engineering, metallurgy and aeronautics. He also was fluent in 5 or 6 languages. He made his living by studying tecnical papers and journals from other countries, translating the findings into English, then advising companies here in the states how these findings might have applications to their production. Impressive? I'd say so... a VERY bright guy. Anyway, I had 'the book', but did not understand it, but he had never heard of it. I asked him if he would like to read it, and he took it back to his apartment that evening (he lived across the road from the DR). He returned it to me THE NEXT DAY, having read it completely the night before. He also left me a short note, which I will quote..."Kelly's book is a sham. If it seems that it contains great, realizable truths about the golf swing, that is because the reader lacks a background in mechanical physics, kinematics, and elements of physical- system modeling and subsequently is easily impressed by Kelly's efforts to clasify discrete (itty-bity) phenomena. If you limit yourself to Kelly's own conceptual framework, you can show the gaps and mistakes in his delineation. Further, when you bring to bear in analysis, understanding of the golf swing milieu beyond Kelly's, his discussion is vapid. If you want insight, save this note and ask me about the following points: (the following are within Kelly's conceptual framework)1) power accumulators: vertebra and ring and middle fingers of right hand (also equal and opposite reactions) 2) Acceleration: m x v = momentum, a = ^v over t 3) gravitational field framework, 4) Radius: scapular articulation 5)Periodicity: time period T of rotational oscillation. 6) Gyroscopic action: continuous, steady state momentum vs. inertia.
The following are beyond Kelly's framework: 1)Swinging vs hitting: arbitrary distinction discounting synergy (leading edge in tension, trailing edge in compression): 2)Big picture: trying to express the spatial nonverbal, analytically. 3) Statics vs dynamics: sensory phenomena associated with low and high angular velocities (weight vs momentum).
Unfortunately, I never had the chance to discuss this with him, as I moved away from Cleveland (thank God!)

Again, this is directed at Brian, but anyone with a scientific background that could decipher some of this, if you would, I would be very grateful.

DSS

Cute little story, but not original.

Mac Ogrady has told it a 1000 times.
 

holenone

Banned
quote:Originally posted by Doug

quote:Originally posted by dss

This is my first post, and , sorry, but I am sure it will be a long one. This is addressed to you, Brian, as I have a lot of respect for your opinion and I understand from reading other posts that you have spent a good deal of time with Ben Doyle. You undoubtedly know the book as well as just about anyone. I am a very humble GSEB, and will be the first to say that my knowledge of TGM has a LONG way to go. But, I have the rest of my life to work on it and I am not on any specific timetable. But, I digress...
A few years ago, before I had the pleasure of studying TGM, I met a fellow at a driving range in Cleveland who was an accomplished ball striker. Also, this fellow happened to have 3 PHD's in engineering, metallurgy and aeronautics. He also was fluent in 5 or 6 languages. He made his living by studying tecnical papers and journals from other countries, translating the findings into English, then advising companies here in the states how these findings might have applications to their production. Impressive? I'd say so... a VERY bright guy. Anyway, I had 'the book', but did not understand it, but he had never heard of it. I asked him if he would like to read it, and he took it back to his apartment that evening (he lived across the road from the DR). He returned it to me THE NEXT DAY, having read it completely the night before. He also left me a short note, which I will quote..."Kelly's book is a sham. If it seems that it contains great, realizable truths about the golf swing, that is because the reader lacks a background in mechanical physics, kinematics, and elements of physical- system modeling and subsequently is easily impressed by Kelly's efforts to clasify discrete (itty-bity) phenomena. If you limit yourself to Kelly's own conceptual framework, you can show the gaps and mistakes in his delineation. Further, when you bring to bear in analysis, understanding of the golf swing milieu beyond Kelly's, his discussion is vapid. If you want insight, save this note and ask me about the following points: (the following are within Kelly's conceptual framework)1) power accumulators: vertebra and ring and middle fingers of right hand (also equal and opposite reactions) 2) Acceleration: m x v = momentum, a = ^v over t 3) gravitational field framework, 4) Radius: scapular articulation 5)Periodicity: time period T of rotational oscillation. 6) Gyroscopic action: continuous, steady state momentum vs. inertia.
The following are beyond Kelly's framework: 1)Swinging vs hitting: arbitrary distinction discounting synergy (leading edge in tension, trailing edge in compression): 2)Big picture: trying to express the spatial nonverbal, analytically. 3) Statics vs dynamics: sensory phenomena associated with low and high angular velocities (weight vs momentum).
Unfortunately, I never had the chance to discuss this with him, as I moved away from Cleveland (thank God!)

Again, this is directed at Brian, but anyone with a scientific background that could decipher some of this, if you would, I would be very grateful.

DSS

Cute little story, but not original.

Mac Ogrady has told it a 1000 times.

Thanks, Doug. Surely everybody knows this post wasn't 'real.'

And even if it was, all anyone must do is read the words of Mr. 'Baffle'em with B.S.' to know that it is wrong.

I chose to use the post to make my own point: The Golfing Machine is The Truth in Golf Instruction.

It has no equal.
 
DSS--

Just out of curiousity, why did you preface your post by saying it was your first post, when you have a posting history?
 
quote:Originally posted by efnef

DSS--

Just out of curiousity, why did you preface your post by saying it was your first post, when you have a posting history?

notice the post date in the first post. It's a year old. EdZ brought it back to life to antogonize our host about the fact that he hadn't heard anymore about Brian's revolutionary theory on plane. The original post is irrelevant to EdZ's purpose.
 

EdZ

New
quote:Originally posted by holenone

quote:Originally posted by dss

This is my first post, and , sorry, but I am sure it will be a long one. This is addressed to you, Brian, as I have a lot of respect for your opinion and I understand from reading other posts that you have spent a good deal of time with Ben Doyle. You undoubtedly know the book as well as just about anyone. I am a very humble GSEB, and will be the first to say that my knowledge of TGM has a LONG way to go. But, I have the rest of my life to work on it and I am not on any specific timetable. But, I digress...
A few years ago, before I had the pleasure of studying TGM, I met a fellow at a driving range in Cleveland who was an accomplished ball striker. Also, this fellow happened to have 3 PHD's in engineering, metallurgy and aeronautics. He also was fluent in 5 or 6 languages. He made his living by studying tecnical papers and journals from other countries, translating the findings into English, then advising companies here in the states how these findings might have applications to their production. Impressive? I'd say so... a VERY bright guy. Anyway, I had 'the book', but did not understand it, but he had never heard of it. I asked him if he would like to read it, and he took it back to his apartment that evening (he lived across the road from the DR). He returned it to me THE NEXT DAY, having read it completely the night before. He also left me a short note, which I will quote..."Kelly's book is a sham. If it seems that it contains great, realizable truths about the golf swing, that is because the reader lacks a background in mechanical physics, kinematics, and elements of physical- system modeling and subsequently is easily impressed by Kelly's efforts to clasify discrete (itty-bity) phenomena. If you limit yourself to Kelly's own conceptual framework, you can show the gaps and mistakes in his delineation. Further, when you bring to bear in analysis, understanding of the golf swing milieu beyond Kelly's, his discussion is vapid. If you want insight, save this note and ask me about the following points: (the following are within Kelly's conceptual framework)1) power accumulators: vertebra and ring and middle fingers of right hand (also equal and opposite reactions) 2) Acceleration: m x v = momentum, a = ^v over t 3) gravitational field framework, 4) Radius: scapular articulation 5)Periodicity: time period T of rotational oscillation. 6) Gyroscopic action: continuous, steady state momentum vs. inertia.
The following are beyond Kelly's framework: 1)Swinging vs hitting: arbitrary distinction discounting synergy (leading edge in tension, trailing edge in compression): 2)Big picture: trying to express the spatial nonverbal, analytically. 3) Statics vs dynamics: sensory phenomena associated with low and high angular velocities (weight vs momentum).
Unfortunately, I never had the chance to discuss this with him, as I moved away from Cleveland (thank God!)

Again, this is directed at Brian, but anyone with a scientific background that could decipher some of this, if you would, I would be very grateful.

Wow! What an 'authoritative,' damning quote. It's late, and there may well be other things that the morrow may bring, but for now, let me say this:

I have studied The Golfing Machine for 25 years -- not 'overnight.' I am no dummy, and while I have no PhD degree, I do have a Bachelors Degree from Georgia Tech. And before my Maker I will unequivocably state that I have yet to find the first thing in The Golfing Machine which, when correctly executed, does not work. Further, I am a far better Ball striker at the ripe old age of 58 than I was at 28. Or 38. Or 48. Today, I actually had a gallery as I striped Tee Shot after Tee Shot beyond the yellow flag at 250 carry. No Hook. No Fade. Just dead Straight.

And I was able to do that because finally, after all these years, I truly understand The Golfing Machine.

Too bad 'Mr. Brilliant' didn't have an extra night for the 'read.'


Holenone - what was the final 'piece of the puzzle' for you? What was it that you 'finally' understood about TGM?
 

holenone

Banned
quote:Originally posted by EdZ

quote:Originally posted by holenone

quote:Originally posted by dss

This is my first post, and , sorry, but I am sure it will be a long one. This is addressed to you, Brian, as I have a lot of respect for your opinion and I understand from reading other posts that you have spent a good deal of time with Ben Doyle. You undoubtedly know the book as well as just about anyone. I am a very humble GSEB, and will be the first to say that my knowledge of TGM has a LONG way to go. But, I have the rest of my life to work on it and I am not on any specific timetable. But, I digress...
A few years ago, before I had the pleasure of studying TGM, I met a fellow at a driving range in Cleveland who was an accomplished ball striker. Also, this fellow happened to have 3 PHD's in engineering, metallurgy and aeronautics. He also was fluent in 5 or 6 languages. He made his living by studying tecnical papers and journals from other countries, translating the findings into English, then advising companies here in the states how these findings might have applications to their production. Impressive? I'd say so... a VERY bright guy. Anyway, I had 'the book', but did not understand it, but he had never heard of it. I asked him if he would like to read it, and he took it back to his apartment that evening (he lived across the road from the DR). He returned it to me THE NEXT DAY, having read it completely the night before. He also left me a short note, which I will quote..."Kelly's book is a sham. If it seems that it contains great, realizable truths about the golf swing, that is because the reader lacks a background in mechanical physics, kinematics, and elements of physical- system modeling and subsequently is easily impressed by Kelly's efforts to clasify discrete (itty-bity) phenomena. If you limit yourself to Kelly's own conceptual framework, you can show the gaps and mistakes in his delineation. Further, when you bring to bear in analysis, understanding of the golf swing milieu beyond Kelly's, his discussion is vapid. If you want insight, save this note and ask me about the following points: (the following are within Kelly's conceptual framework)1) power accumulators: vertebra and ring and middle fingers of right hand (also equal and opposite reactions) 2) Acceleration: m x v = momentum, a = ^v over t 3) gravitational field framework, 4) Radius: scapular articulation 5)Periodicity: time period T of rotational oscillation. 6) Gyroscopic action: continuous, steady state momentum vs. inertia.
The following are beyond Kelly's framework: 1)Swinging vs hitting: arbitrary distinction discounting synergy (leading edge in tension, trailing edge in compression): 2)Big picture: trying to express the spatial nonverbal, analytically. 3) Statics vs dynamics: sensory phenomena associated with low and high angular velocities (weight vs momentum).
Unfortunately, I never had the chance to discuss this with him, as I moved away from Cleveland (thank God!)

Again, this is directed at Brian, but anyone with a scientific background that could decipher some of this, if you would, I would be very grateful.

Wow! What an 'authoritative,' damning quote. It's late, and there may well be other things that the morrow may bring, but for now, let me say this:

I have studied The Golfing Machine for 25 years -- not 'overnight.' I am no dummy, and while I have no PhD degree, I do have a Bachelors Degree from Georgia Tech. And before my Maker I will unequivocably state that I have yet to find the first thing in The Golfing Machine which, when correctly executed, does not work. Further, I am a far better Ball striker at the ripe old age of 58 than I was at 28. Or 38. Or 48. Today, I actually had a gallery as I striped Tee Shot after Tee Shot beyond the yellow flag at 250 carry. No Hook. No Fade. Just dead Straight.

And I was able to do that because finally, after all these years, I truly understand The Golfing Machine.

Too bad 'Mr. Brilliant' didn't have an extra night for the 'read.'


Holenone - what was the final 'piece of the puzzle' for you? What was it that you 'finally' understood about TGM?

Did you put the post up?
 

EdZ

New
My question to you? yes. The original post, nope. I have never, and will never use an alias on any board. I'm EdZ on all boards I post on.
 
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