Brian--your resignation

[Paul C]

I have been a longtime visitor to this site, learned much, bought one of your videos, and all of it has helped me advance my knowledge of the golf swing--my swing, and helped my game. Your announcement regarding your resignation from TGM prompted me to register on this site and leave this message.

The idea that Homer Kelly would drape his book around science, have no realworld improvement when putting his theories to test, and then be accepted as the Rosetta Stone for golf always baffled me. I do respect his attempt to take a Darwinian approach to classification and yes, he laid down a marker for others like you to come along and add to the knowledge. Apparently, the current keepers of this strange flame, have decided that a Spanish Inquisition approach is now necessary. Advancing of knowledge be damned.

Keep searching and advancing the debate for truth in the golf swing, if there is such a thing. Their approach is stuck in amber, frozen forever.

 

[Ringer]

Amen.

 

[alexandjacob]

YEP

I believe all things work out 4 the best

Michael Jacobs had met with Sally Kelly and was hoping to acquire the rights to the golfing machine.

He was then hoping to make changes and keep the golfing machine book and process alive

I am sure that even tho mj was (is) a believer in what was....he would have found it to difficult

and to time consuming to REDO...THE PROCESS..............now Mike and Brian are hoping to take golf

to another level....with ""proof of purchase"...........if for some reason you haven't visited mike's site

www.nygolfworld.com...........wonderful site...take a look...........I want this book to be a BEST OF THE BEST.

Mike and Brian are tireless workers....this endeavor will be special.......

h

 

[SteveT]

@ alexandjacob ... The entire underpinning of TGM was Chapter 2, the science behind Homer's mind experiment.

Chapter 2 is replete with nonsense and it just revealed the abject state of mind of this man .... but hey ... his observations and classifications within the yellow book were more than anybody had in golf in the last 500 years ... so naive, ignorant, desperate golfer embraced Homer ... mostly because they couldn't understand his confusion ... so that meant it contained the cherished secrets to all their questions and search for science ... and they took it from the wrong source ... oh I could go on, but I promised BrianM that I wouldn't burden the forum with gory details .... 30

 

[greenfree]

@ alexandjacob ... The entire underpinning of TGM was Chapter 2, the science behind Homer's mind experiment.

Chapter 2 is replete with nonsense and it just revealed the abject state of mind of this man .... but hey ... his observations and classifications within the yellow book were more than anybody had in golf in the last 500 years ... so naive, ignorant, desperate golfer embraced Homer ... mostly because they couldn't understand his confusion ... so that meant it contained the cherished secrets to all their questions and search for science ... and they took it from the wrong source ... oh I could go on, but I promised BrianM that I wouldn't burden the forum with gory details .... 30

Sounds like Deadly.

 

[MikeD2]

Yeah, enough already.

Criticizing Mr. Kelley for not vetting out the science of the D-Plane is like criticizing the Wright brothers for not having decent tray tables on the Flyer. Sure, he got it wrong, but he was in there trying to sort it out at a time when nobody else even cared about a critical analysis of the golf swing. Unlike his adherents, he had an open mind. I have no doubt that were he alive today he'd be poring over Trackman and 3D data trying to get the model right. What's inexcusable is the "keepers of his flame" who won't even admit to the possibility that what they're selling may not be right.

Let's separate the man from "The Machine" as we know it today and give Mr. Kelley the respect he deserves.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Yeah, enough already.

Criticizing Mr. Kelley for not vetting out the science of the D-Plane is like criticizing the Wright brothers for not having decent tray tables on the Flyer. Sure, he got it wrong, but he was in there trying to sort it out at a time when nobody else even cared about a critical analysis of the golf swing. Unlike his adherents, he had an open mind. I have no doubt that were he alive today he'd be poring over Trackman and 3D data trying to get the model right. What's inexcusable is the "keepers of his flame" who won't even admit to the possibility that what they're selling may not be right.

Let's separate the man from "The Machine" as we know it today and give Mr. Kelley the respect he deserves.

Great, accurate post!!

 

[alexandjacob]

I

I 2nd 3rd 4th and 5th what BRIAN SAID

GREAT POST!!!

 

[jerry1967]

Where were all you guys before Brian resigned? I am not for or against this debate but I am very disappointed because of the countless hours I have put into studying this site and trying to learn the Golfing Machine. Now guys are coming out of the woodwork saying the golfing machine is not good.

I wonder how many golfers are going to just say we are tried of this and move on to other instructors?

 

[dbl]

Jerry I am sorry for what you feel is wasted time. But we joined a while back and getting a handle on tgm basics, or at least enough for my consumption, only took about 2 years. Adding knowledge as it came up thereafter was for me just supplementary info. BUT the stuff of the last 2years to me has been the most interesting and valuable. I hope you might come to see things similarly.

 

[birly-shirly]

jerry - don't be too disappointed.

If you've found stuff that works for you, then I wouldn't let anyone's theoretical objections put you off. I wouldn't have thought that most people here would disagree with that approach.

If you've invested time and effort into understanding this site, or TGM, then that investment shouldn't be wasted. Some of the stuff is wrong, but the effort in understanding why it's wrong shouldn't be wasted.

I don't think this current situation has come totally out of the blue. You've been here longer than I have, but one of the first threads I posted on was the List the Correct Science in the Golfing Machine one. There was lots of scepticism there. I'd guess that this has been a long time coming.

Lastly, if the whole resignation situation is truly driven by a new TGM AI contract that restricts an instructor's ability to challenge the authorised tenets of TGM, then I think that shows up the TGM corporation in a new, and not very flattering, light. This brings in issues, not just of scientific accuracy, but also credibility. That's a business or branding issue though, and doesn't directly influence whether you can still find something good in the book, or through working with a good AI, whether current or "lapsed".

What I would say is, that if you're willing to put in hours of book work on TGM, then spread the investment around a bit. If you haven't already, try to get copies of The Search for the Perfect Swing and Jorgenson's Physics of Golf. Both are scientifically more reliable than TGM, and much more accessible too. Plenty TGM'ers speak highly of Clampett's book too as a "way in".

 

[MikeD2]

What I would say is, that if you're willing to put in hours of book work on TGM, then spread the investment around a bit. If you haven't already, try to get copies of The Search for the Perfect Swing and Jorgenson's Physics of Golf. Both are scientifically more reliable than TGM, and much more accessible too. Plenty TGM'ers speak highly of Clampett's book too as a "way in".

Great stuff, Birly. I agree completely.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Truth in Advertising....

This was a long time coming folks. This is NOT something that happened over night. I have learned a lot of new hard science in the last few years, and I have become a MUCH better teacher for it.

So Jerry, all I can say is I will make you this solemn promise:

I promise to work everyday of the rest of my life to learn as much scientific information about the golf swing as possible. I promise to take it all in and make sense of it and tell it to everyone who will listen.

I hope you will listen.

Thanks,

BManz

 

[jerry1967]

I am always listening Brian. I just don't want to be disappointed again. I have learned alot about the swing from the book and there are somethings I still don't understand and never will. Thats why I come on here to learn about the SWING.

I sure have become a better golfer since I started reading it. The best book I have read for me is Jimmy Ballard's book, but I read them all.

 

[alexandjacob]

jerry

Where were all you guys before Brian resigned? I am not for or against this debate but I am very disappointed because of the countless hours I have put into studying this site and trying to learn the Golfing Machine. Now guys are coming out of the woodwork saying the golfing machine is not good.

I wonder how many golfers are going to just say we are tried of this and move on to other instructors?

I don't believe people are saying its not good.....I believe they might be saying

it was good for its time, and still has great value....but Trackman, Flightscope, 1 gazellion fps cameras

technology is changing.....and so must we. Last point..... years ago i used persimmon clubs....now i use

updated clubs....do some people still use persimmon??? SURE......nothing wrong if thats their choice....BUT

PLEASE....NOONE TELL ME WHAT I CAN AND CANNOT USE....restriction stops progress....stopping progress

s--ks (no i don't curse)

 

[Brian Manzella]

Jerry 1967

Jerry,

Do you want the TRUTH about the golf swing or not?

Yes or no.

 

[jerry1967]

I don't believe people are saying its not good.....I believe they might be saying

it was good for its time, and still has great value....but Trackman, Flightscope, 1 gazellion fps cameras

technology is changing.....and so must we. Last point..... years ago i used persimmon clubs....now i use

updated clubs....do some people still use persimmon??? SURE......nothing wrong if thats their choice....BUT

PLEASE....NOONE TELL ME WHAT I CAN AND CANNOT USE....restriction stops progress....stopping progress

s--ks (no i don't curse)

Ok I have no problem with the book being wrong if in fact it is but where were these guys when all Brian could talk about was the Golfing Machine. Seems like everybody is jumping on the band wagon now that Brian is now saying the book is flawed. Ever golf book I ever read is probably flawed but I still like them.

Could someone explain to me what is wrong with the book ? It sure has helped me become a better golfer.

 

[jerry1967]

Jerry,

Do you want the TRUTH about the golf swing or not?

Yes or no.

If it will help me become a better golfer than sure I want the truth.

 

[Brian Manzella]

If it will help me become a better golfer than sure I want to truth.

Stick around Jerry.

This place will provide more ACCURATE SCIENCE about how the golf swing really works, then any place in history in the next few months.

Any part of the swing you'd like me to start a thread on?

 

[alexandjacob]

if i may

Ok I have no problem with the book being wrong if in fact it is but where were these guys when all Brian could talk about was the Golfing Machine. Seems like everybody is jumping on the band wagon now that Brian is now saying the book is flawed. Ever golf book I ever read is probably flawed but I still like them.

Could someone explain to me what is wrong with the book ? It sure has helped me become a better golfer.

I don't believe Brian is saying the book is wrong or flawed...............his CONCERN is its not up2date

i believe that Brian respects the book "for what it was at the time" as well as the author...BUT....

as my mom (who i miss dearly) used to say to me.....howard to stand still is to go BACKWARDS....

H