Butch Harmon on Foley vs. Haney

[Lifter]

I don't think it's hard to read between the lines and see what Harmon is really saying here:

PGA Tour: Foley Entering New Territory With Tiger: Golf Digest

Harmon says Foley has it the toughest because he took the job when Woods was at his worst - not only with his golf game, but trying to patch together a personal life torn apart.

"I had it the easiest," Harmon said. "I had him when he was a teenager. He was young. He did everything I asked him to do. He wasn't married. He didn't have those outside problems. Sean is young (36). He's got a big ego. He's been thrown into a difficult situation. He probably got Tiger at the worst time. When Tiger left me and went to Hank, he was still a good player."​

 

[spktho]

...he was still a good player."

Whoa. That is a bold statement.

 

[mgranato]

3 shots in 11 sentences... Not bad.

"Who just had players take 1st and 2nd last week? This guy!", was left on the cutting room floor.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Well....

Fact #1: Tiger was not doing "The Butch Swing" when he won the Tiger slam.

Fact #2: Butch did have an easier time than Sean.

Fact #3: Sean is NOT any cockier than Butch or Hank.

Fact #4: Can we just all let the Sean Foley era play out?

 

[vjsinger]

Good post Brian! Let the Sean and Tiger era play out! I believe it will get better, not necessarily because of Sean's ability to teach/explain concepts and diagnose, but because Sean has the backswing going in the right direction and Tiger will eventually figure it out with his D-plane knowledge Sean has given him. JMO.

 

[gimme]

Good post Brian! Let the Sean and Tiger era play out! I believe it will get better, not necessarily because of Sean's ability to teach/explain concepts and diagnose, but because Sean has the backswing going in the right direction and Tiger will eventually figure it out with his D-plane knowledge Sean has given him. JMO.

Sounds like a contradictory statement . Sean has the b.s. going in the right direction and has given Tiger D-plane knowledge, that sounds like teaching and explaining a concept and diagnosing a problem, but it's not going to happen because of Sean's ability to do that, wtf?

Is that a Morad secret way to instruction?...lol.

 

[ktkn]

Sounds like a contradictory statement . Sean has the b.s. going in the right direction and has given Tiger D-plane knowledge, that sounds like teaching and explaining a concept and diagnosing a problem, but it's not going to happen because of Sean's ability to do that, wtf?

Is that a Morad secret way to instruction?...lol.

Statement looks ok to me. Not sure where it contradicts. Replace "Not necessarily because of" with "Not just because of". Does that help?

 

[Brian Manzella]

Some questions and answers:

Can Tiger do the new swing? Heck, I probably could.

Will Tiger win soon? I saw him play in person on Sunday for 12 holes, and if he can shoot 66 hotting it that average, he can win soon if he hits it better.

Haney had this boy in knots with the clubface folks.

Knots.

 

[Mike Thomas (sunmart)]

Brian, what is your timetable in the "Foley Era"? 1 year? 2 years? 3 years? Longer?

 

[nwb]

Fact #1: Tiger was not doing "The Butch Swing" when he won the Tiger slam.

I don't understand that one?

 

[rogerdodger]

Some questions and answers:

Can Tiger do the new swing? Heck, I probably could.

Will Tiger win soon? I saw him play in person on Sunday for 12 holes, and if he can shoot 66 hotting it that average, he can win soon if he hits it better.

Haney had this boy in knots with the clubface folks.

Knots.

This should be the last word on the subject even if that is wishful thinking.

 

[Richie3Jack]

Statistically, Tiger was a top 5 driver of the ball on the PGA Tour and probably a top 3 long iron player *of all time* under Butch. His putting was off and on under Butch, but was pretty much on right before he left him.

Under Haney, Tiger became average *off the tee* statistically. And I'm not only talking about driving distance + fwy %, but proximity to the edge of the fairway when the shot went into the rough. Also remember that Tiger started using less and less drivers under Haney because of his driver accuracy issues. He was still a top 3 long iron player of all time and then became truly a great putter.

Again, this is from a statistical standpoint.

Still, because of Tiger's driver woes, he wasn't nearly as dominant because his shots in the rough were more wayward and more difficult to hit. And he found the fairway less, where with a long iron Tiger was by far and away the best on Tour. I'm talking WAYYYYYYYYYYYYY better than anybody else. As in, typically the *leader* on Tour from 175-225 yards out from the fairway would hit it on average roughly 32feet. #2 on Tour would be right behind him...so would #3, #4, etc.

But Tiger would have years where from that range he would be on average 26 feet away. Think about it for a second. He *was* hitting it about 18% more accurate than the #2 player on Tour from that range!

However, eventually Tiger's prowess from long distance approaches started to slip as well. He would still rank #1, but not nearly as dominant as he once was. In fact, in 2009 he did finish 1st in prox. to the cup from 175-225 yards. BUT, he was 'only' 3% more accurate than the #2 guy that year (Jason Bohn).

Hank Haney to Tiger Woods is like Barry Switzer to the Dallas Cowboys. Yeah, Switzer won a Super Bowl with the Cowboys. Does anybody in their right mind think he was a good NFL coach? We can argue swing theory, swing physics, biomechanics and geometry. But the numbers show that Tiger was dominant, but was clearly striking the ball worse under Haney...which the golfing world should've accepted by now anyway.







3JACK

 

[lia41985]

Statistically, Tiger was a top 5 driver of the ball on the PGA Tour and probably a top 3 long iron player *of all time* under Butch. His putting was off and on under Butch, but was pretty much on right before he left him.

Under Haney, Tiger became average *off the tee* statistically. And I'm not only talking about driving distance + fwy %, but proximity to the edge of the fairway when the shot went into the rough. Also remember that Tiger started using less and less drivers under Haney because of his driver accuracy issues. He was still a top 3 long iron player of all time and then became truly a great putter.

Again, this is from a statistical standpoint.

Still, because of Tiger's driver woes, he wasn't nearly as dominant because his shots in the rough were more wayward and more difficult to hit. And he found the fairway less, where with a long iron Tiger was by far and away the best on Tour. I'm talking WAYYYYYYYYYYYYY better than anybody else. As in, typically the *leader* on Tour from 175-225 yards out from the fairway would hit it on average roughly 32feet. #2 on Tour would be right behind him...so would #3, #4, etc.

But Tiger would have years where from that range he would be on average 26 feet away. Think about it for a second. He *was* hitting it about 18% more accurate than the #2 player on Tour from that range!

However, eventually Tiger's prowess from long distance approaches started to slip as well. He would still rank #1, but not nearly as dominant as he once was. In fact, in 2009 he did finish 1st in prox. to the cup from 175-225 yards. BUT, he was 'only' 3% more accurate than the #2 guy that year (Jason Bohn).

Hank Haney to Tiger Woods is like Barry Switzer to the Dallas Cowboys. Yeah, Switzer won a Super Bowl with the Cowboys. Does anybody in their right mind think he was a good NFL coach? We can argue swing theory, swing physics, biomechanics and geometry. But the numbers show that Tiger was dominant, but was clearly striking the ball worse under Haney...which the golfing world should've accepted by now anyway.







3JACK

Much more of an explicated argument than "RT: @____ win %"

I don't know if @hankdhaney is brilliantly succinct or preternaturally impulsive.

 

[wulsy]

Haney had this boy in knots with the clubface folks.

Knots.

Brian could you say exactly (in a nutshell) what the problem was witht he clubface under Haney? Not only would it be interesting to hear but it would be fairer to Haney considering the constant "Haney bashing" taking place recently.

Reality is that Tiger won a lot under Haney, so I really think that Haney is being overly criticised vs Butch. To me Butch is just covertly using Tiger's record to support his own reputation as a coach.

Foley has been the least successful of the three after a given time. Maybe he needs more time, but for sure the others were more successful immediately and did not claim that it would take 2 years to make it work. Come on, 2 years with a guy of his talent and "new found" intensity? Just doesn't ring true to me.

Foley is the right coach for Mahan, but not the right coach for Woods. Simples.

 

[Jwat]

Fact #1: Tiger was not doing "The Butch Swing" when he won the Tiger slam.

I don't understand that one?

I am probably not the best to answer this one, but I did go to the Butch Harmon School and took lessons from one of his top instructors. Butch even watched me swing for 5 min. They really focus on a short wide takeaway with zero to barely any lower body or hip turn on the backswing. I think Adam Scott and Nick Watney really represent what Harmon teaches.

 

[aaron_lohan]

I am probably not the best to answer this one, but I did go to the Butch Harmon School and took lessons from one of his top instructors. Butch even watched me swing for 5 min. They really focus on a short wide takeaway with zero to barely any lower body or hip turn on the backswing. I think Adam Scott and Nick Watney really represent what Harmon teaches.

And that is similar to how Tiger swung in 2000 is it not?

 

[Jwat]

Its not, that is my point. I don't think Tiger ever swung that way. Did he have a wider takeaway? Yes, but like I said I am not the best to answer if Tiger swung exactly this way. I just have the experience of dealing with Harmon and his techniques first hand. I do think the wider takeaway helped Tiger keep the club more centered in his body and not forearm rolled around his chest like Haney. Therefore he was able to drop his hands into his right hip pocket instead a total body and forearm rotation to square the club.

 

[lia41985]

Is there such a thing as "the Butch swing"?:
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"He teaches people, not systems," Burke says. "Some of these guys have a system for using a toothbrush. There's a swing in everybody—but you gotta find it. Butch tries to."

Harmon employs an anti-method method, delivered in a blunt but ingratiating manner. Peter Kostis, the teacher and TV analyst, says of Harmon's tour stature, "The relationship—the likability factor—between teacher and pro is every bit as important as the quality of instruction. Butch makes sure he doesn't hurt anybody, because at the tour level it's easy to hurt more than help in the process of trying."

From: America's 50 Greatest Teachers: Golf Digest

 

[Jwat]

I get what your saying Lia, but when I went to the school that wasn't the case. I am an ex-Div 1 baseball player. I am 5'10, 195pds so when they were drawing lines and putting my swing sequence next to Adam Scotts for 3 seperate lessons, you have to wonder how much of an anti-method he has. Dont get me wrong, he is obviously much better than most instructors, but to say he is totally anti-method I have a hard time believing.

I have restricted flexibility due to swinging a bat over half a million times and being a stockier guy. They should have put my swing next to Charlie Hoffman's and worked from there. That would have been alot better option than Adam Scott. Oh and btw, they are really really into line drawing. So is Hank Haney and most of the other method teachers. I have seen Brian several times and not once did he ever draw a line. Just sayin

 

[lia41985]

I get what your saying Lia, but when I went to the school that wasn't the case. I am an ex-Div 1 baseball player. I am 5'10, 195pds so when they were drawing lines and putting my swing sequence next to Adam Scotts for 3 seperate lessons, you have to wonder how much of an anti-method he has. Dont get me wrong, he is obviously much better than most instructors, but to say he is totally anti-method I have a hard time believing.

I have restricted flexibility due to swinging a bat over half a million times and being a stockier guy. They should have put my swing next to Charlie Hoffman's and worked from there. That would have been alot better option than Adam Scott. Oh and btw, they are really really into line drawing. So is Hank Haney and most of the other method teachers. I have seen Brian several times and not once did he ever draw a line. Just sayin

Thanks for telling me about your experience. I'd be very disappointed if that had happened to me.