Butch Harmon on Foley vs. Haney

[lia41985]

What Butch and Tiger worked on:
<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/PplQjd6ZP88" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
The end product:
<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/40G2KzTmbEs" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[Jwat]

I agree with what they were working on when appearing on the golf channel. I think that is correct for Tiger.

But I think we are talking about 2 totally different Butch Harmons. We have Butch who works with Tour Pros and does his best to just tweak their swings. And then we have Butch and school who works with amateurs. This Butch is a method teacher because he sticks to teaching all the amateurs 1 way to swing.

So which Butch are we discussing here?

 

[lia41985]

My last two posts were meant to address whether there's one "Butch swing" and whether Tiger was doing "the Butch swing" when he worked with Harmon. Harmon's students have different swings and Tiger appears to have incorporated what Butch was teaching him. I have nothing to contradict what you've written here:

We have Butch who works with Tour Pros and does his best to just tweak their swings. And then we have Butch and school who works with amateurs. This Butch is a method teacher because he sticks to teaching all the amateurs 1 way to swing.

 

[Jwat]

Oh I know, your posts are always spot on. I was just merely stating that Harmon is totally different with the pros than he is with amateurs. I do agree that Tiger was doing what Butch wanted him to do for the most part. His swing was simpler that way. But not even when Butch tried could he control Tiger's lower body movement.

 

[aaron_lohan]

Oh I know, your posts are always spot on. I was just merely stating that Harmon is totally different with the pros than he is with amateurs. I do agree that Tiger was doing what Butch wanted him to do for the most part. His swing was simpler that way. But not even when Butch tried could he control Tiger's lower body movement.

He did control Tiger's lower body action to some extent it did reduce from when Tiger was 16 till he was 27.

 

[Jwat]

He did control Tiger's lower body action to some extent it did reduce from when Tiger was 16 till he was 27.

Very true, I was just meaning controlling it to the extent of Adam Scott. I am telling you they use him as their posterboy for swings for the amateur instruction.

 

[lia41985]

Haney had this boy in knots with the clubface folks.

Knots.

Check out this swing from 2005 (near the beginning of the Haney era)--great hand path and consequently, great club face control:
<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/GekrFqrsSPE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

I remember I first came on this forum wanting your thoughts on Haney's parallel planes idea and I believe Lindsey has given a great answer as to why the parallel plane idea may be disastrous for some:

think of tumble in terms of the shaft alignment in the downswing. Typically due to poor hand paths and even worse instruction, folks believe the shaft should point above (dwn line view)the ball. Everyone looks at hogan, sergio and all these laid off moves and believe the shaft, clubhead and sweet spot get thrown out to the ball by magic.Nope at some point pressure must be put on the shaft to align the sweetspot for collision with the ball. That's tumble.

But then again, in this swing from 2005, Tiger had a great hand path. Now here's a swing from the 2009 President's Cup--basically near the end of the Haney era:
<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/nc762GxvLNk" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Nice hand path and club face control there too.

 

[gailfcno]

haneys swing method had its faults, but tiger won 2 majors one yr after starting with haney and his win percentage with haney was amazing. cant see tiger winning any majors this yr let alone a tournament. foley has has been with tiger for nearly a yr now and in that time tiger has got steadly worse. tiger has always been very strong mentally and could make any swing work, but this swing is nearly the opposite to what he leaned as a child and had been using for years, and you wonder is he as strong mentally after what happened in his private life, maybe this is just a method swing change too far. tigers mind is already cluttered, the one place he went to unclutter his mind and find some peace was the golfcourse, what he didnt need was another guy at this stage who would clutter his mind on the golfcourse aswell, and have him doing stupid looking swing rehearsals before and after every shot. the last thing tiger needed at this stage was a so called swing guru.

 

[mb6606]

the last thing tiger needed at this stage was a so called swing guru.

An indoor studio w/ trackman, a month or two alone and TW would have figured out what works best for TW.
So many ways to hit a golf ball and each of us has one or even several ways that works best.

 

[mjstrong]

It's funny ('cause I kind of agree), that we'd consider another pro, who just top 10'd a WGC event, to have little chance of winning a tournament this year.

I think mb6606 is right, Tiger would have done well to hit balls outside, on his trackman, and let the numbers/ball flight get him back to where he wants to be. Not an option for most people, but I think would have worked for him.

 

[footwedge]

What makes you think that Foley and Tiger don't use Trackman? I remember Brian saying Tiger owns several and uses them. The truth is it's all speculation and people are quick to jump on and off the bandwagon, like Brian said give it some time, it's easy from the peanut gallery a lot harder inside the ropes.

 

[lia41985]

I remember Brian saying Tiger owns several and uses them.

First part yes, second part no:

Wouldn't you LOVE TO SEE the before and after Trackman numbers?

Tiger has a unit, and does NOT use it at all for his swing.

 

[mb6606]

It's funny ('cause I kind of agree), that we'd consider another pro, who just top 10'd a WGC event, to have little chance of winning a tournament this year.

I think mb6606 is right, Tiger would have done well to hit balls outside, on his trackman, and let the numbers/ball flight get him back to where he wants to be. Not an option for most people, but I think would have worked for him.

I think a indoor studio is better - no wind, no distractions, new balls, totally controlled environment maybe a mirror or two, a notepad to record swing thoughts. Then an occasional trip to the range and course to verify what move/swing works best. Tiger we be back on top in short time.
Why adopt a new method from a swing coach? Do the move(s) that gets you closest to zero/zero with suitable distance that you can repeat!

 

[mjstrong]

footwedge: He does own at least one, but I have no idea how he (or he/Foley) uses it. I'm amazed at how many facilities still view these machines as primarily club fitting tools, rather than a teaching tool.

 

[mjstrong]

I think a indoor studio is better - no wind, no distractions, new balls, totally controlled environment maybe a mirror or two, a notepad to record swing thoughts. Then an occasional trip to the range and course to verify what move/swing works best. Tiger we be back on top in short time.
Why adopt a new method from a swing coach? Do the move(s) that gets you closest to zero/zero with suitable distance that you can repeat!

Yup (to bolded), exactly. Although I think he needs to be practicing his new swing with more distractions. He says he can perform on the range, but through some uneven lies, stance, or wind at him, and his adjustments don't quite match up yet.