Same here Kevin, it is always great to be among fellow golf professionals trying to get better instead of the status quo too many others fall into in our profession. As far as what I am not convince of........and maybe I misinterpreted it, but I still feel that hinge action along with ball location has an effect on the spin and flight of the ball. It can be an insignificant detail, but a detail none the less. The downstroke "preparation" of Horizontal Hinging and that of Angled Hinging has an effect on the golf ball's response to the rotation of the face angle and sweetspot of the clubface from the moment of impact to seperation. We are talking minor degrees of difference but there is a difference. Trackman shows us how even 1* can make a ball flight change within certain perameters. Until Tackman we made educated guesses and now we can see data along with cause and effect.
Can the Clubface have different closing rates during the Impact Interval?
- Thread starter bax1865
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Same here Kevin, it is always great to be among fellow golf professionals trying to get better instead of the status quo too many others fall into in our profession. As far as what I am not convince of........and maybe I misinterpreted it, but I still feel that hinge action along with ball location has an effect on the spin and flight of the ball. It can be an insignificant detail, but a detail none the less. The downstroke "preparation" of Horizontal Hinging and that of Angled Hinging has an effect on the golf ball's response to the rotation of the face angle and sweetspot of the clubface from the moment of impact to seperation. We are talking minor degrees of difference but there is a difference. Trackman shows us how even 1* can make a ball flight change within certain perameters. Until Tackman we made educated guesses and now we can see data along with cause and effect.
Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
So what are you saying, that you can actually move the face while the ball is on it?
I beleive there are many clubface factors that can effect the flight of the ball during the time period of the initial moment of clubface contact to ball and the time the ball leaves the surface of the clubface. They may be hard to detect with the tools we have today but trust me, that is always a scary thing to say, but there will be a day when technology allows us to see this happen. Do I think I can manipulate the face of the club during the short time of impact? No and I would be silly to think anyone could but it is a continual action of becoming prepared during the downstroke of making an action of the clubface that will cause a change in ball flight. If the case is that we can not change the face and its ball flight reaction, then at what point of the downstroke is the fate of the ball sealed? Wasn't one of the many highlights of the seminar seeing Michael Finney's reaction to the effect of gravity on the face of the club? The clubface "can" be, but doesn't have to be, in a constant rate of closing or opening during the travel to impact. With that being said, if the player does not try to alter that closing or opening action, but simply allows it to continue then the clubface and the teeny tiny sweet spot has to be creating some kind of altered motion to the ball. I'm sorry for splitting hairs but I just don't think it is the case that different rates of clubface rotation has "absolutetly" no effect of the ball. But if I am wrong I will be happy to admit it and consider myself just a little more educated. Thanks for the debate.
ggsjpc
New
It seems to me that different rates of clubface rotation only effect the ability of the player to land it on the ball in the same shape repetitively. I think the hinge action prep makes sense but the action isn't happening on the ball.
I think the fate of the ball is sealed when the club hits it. No sooner and no later. The ball is reactive and isn't on the face long enough for the hinge actions to have to noticeable effect.
I think the fate of the ball is sealed when the club hits it. No sooner and no later. The ball is reactive and isn't on the face long enough for the hinge actions to have to noticeable effect.
Michael Finney
New
Bax,
An interesting side note is that while we were at Ping we were told that during the dowswing, the club face is constantly "torquing open - torquing closed" as the center of gravity is seeking its balance during the delivery period...
As far as the discussion you and Kevin are having about the "effect" of hinging (as described by Homer Kelley), Aaron Zick is on record saying that the ball doesn't know the difference.
I will agree with you that PREPARATION is everything and we definitely feel that preparation...and we also feel the after effects during the swivel. But if you truly try to "vertical hinge" a full 3 iron shot, the difference in ball flight is due to other parameters being different - not the hinge action.....I think
An interesting side note is that while we were at Ping we were told that during the dowswing, the club face is constantly "torquing open - torquing closed" as the center of gravity is seeking its balance during the delivery period...
As far as the discussion you and Kevin are having about the "effect" of hinging (as described by Homer Kelley), Aaron Zick is on record saying that the ball doesn't know the difference.
I will agree with you that PREPARATION is everything and we definitely feel that preparation...and we also feel the after effects during the swivel. But if you truly try to "vertical hinge" a full 3 iron shot, the difference in ball flight is due to other parameters being different - not the hinge action.....I think
Around and around we go......
"Noticeable effect or non whatsoever?" Beleive me, we can beat this to death and probably already have. Sorry! Other replies in threads written previously, have used the world "perceptively" to describe the lack of hinge effect during impact. All I was trying to say was that if the case being made is that it has "zero" effect on the flight, then I have to respectfully disagree, that's all. I still am open to differing opinions and still respect everyones struggle to better understand the reaction of the ball and how to better control it.
"Noticeable effect or non whatsoever?" Beleive me, we can beat this to death and probably already have. Sorry! Other replies in threads written previously, have used the world "perceptively" to describe the lack of hinge effect during impact. All I was trying to say was that if the case being made is that it has "zero" effect on the flight, then I have to respectfully disagree, that's all. I still am open to differing opinions and still respect everyones struggle to better understand the reaction of the ball and how to better control it.
Brian Manzella
Administrator
What EXACT question do you want me to ask my friend at PING?
Remember, they have a camera that takes 100,000 pictures per second, so you WILL get the REAL ANSWER.
Be careful, you may not get what you want.
1. Is there any appreciable change in the face angle during the impact interval? If so, what is the maximum measured?
2. Does the rate of change of the face angle coming into the ball have any effect of the face angle through impact? In layman's terms: Is the face angle at impact "is what it is" or does it matter "what it's doing"? An engineer may say, "Do the deltas matter?" coming into impact.
3. If the guy is talkative: Does the mass of the ball have any appreciable effect on a face angle change through the impact interval? Same question for non-sweet spot strikes.
2. Does the rate of change of the face angle coming into the ball have any effect of the face angle through impact? In layman's terms: Is the face angle at impact "is what it is" or does it matter "what it's doing"? An engineer may say, "Do the deltas matter?" coming into impact.
3. If the guy is talkative: Does the mass of the ball have any appreciable effect on a face angle change through the impact interval? Same question for non-sweet spot strikes.
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It hinges on this.....
First, can the Ping Man with the type mounting it has duplicate the various hinge actions through impact or is it limited to just one? If it were able to, I would be interested to see the results. I've been fortunate to have been to the Ping Factory and know that they are very meticulous and well researched.
Second, why do they and all club manufacturers change designs so often, with each new one being the best ever. Only kidding, but as a Club Pro that owns the shop, I get tired of the engineers discovering something better every 6 months.
First, can the Ping Man with the type mounting it has duplicate the various hinge actions through impact or is it limited to just one? If it were able to, I would be interested to see the results. I've been fortunate to have been to the Ping Factory and know that they are very meticulous and well researched.
Second, why do they and all club manufacturers change designs so often, with each new one being the best ever. Only kidding, but as a Club Pro that owns the shop, I get tired of the engineers discovering something better every 6 months.
It's all hype. The thing is, they don't change the designs that much at all. A few cosmetic alterations, tweak the paint scheme, make up some snappy name - BOOM - new driver.
Why does Taylormade (as an example, other OEMs are equally guilty) release a new driver every week? Because they can. They market the crap out of whatever "technological revolution" the new club supposedly features and shrewdly rely on the consumer's weakness for bright colors and big words.
As a retailer, you're in somewhat of a pinch. The OEMs are basically forcing you to lie to your customers in order to move the product, which is usually nothing more than a repackaged version of the previous model. It's a tough business for an honest man.
Bax,
An interesting side note is that while we were at Ping we were told that during the dowswing, the club face is constantly "torquing open - torquing closed" as the center of gravity is seeking its balance during the delivery period...
As far as the discussion you and Kevin are having about the "effect" of hinging (as described by Homer Kelley), Aaron Zick is on record saying that the ball doesn't know the difference.
I will agree with you that PREPARATION is everything and we definitely feel that preparation...and we also feel the after effects during the swivel. But if you truly try to "vertical hinge" a full 3 iron shot, the difference in ball flight is due to other parameters being different - not the hinge action.....I think
What created/caused the "other parameters" for the ball flight to change?
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Brian Manzella
Administrator
The Facts and the Fiction—as they stand.
In the book The Golfing Machine, by Homer Kelley, Mr. Kelley hypothesized about the manipulation of the Hands through the Impact Interval.
The Impact Interval is the time from when the clubhead IMPACTs the ball, to the time when the ball SEPARATEs from the club. This takes place over a space of between about a half-inch and three-quarters of an inch. The Stopwatch time is in the 1000ths of a second.
He termed this HAND MANIPULATION "Hinge Action," because the motions the clubface made during this POSED MANIPULATION could be described by the action of a Hinge Arrangement.
Vertical Hinge Action was what would occur if the HINGE was mounted horizontally to the ground. Like an attic door. Kelley said that the clubface would remain in the same alignment to the target during the impact interval of Vertical Hinge Action.
Horizontal Hinge Action was what would occur if the HINGE was mounted vertically to the ground. Like an regular door. Kelley said that the clubface would remain vertical to the ground—like the door does—during the impact interval of Horizontal Hinge Action, and would close relative to the target during this period.
Angled Hinge Action was what would occur if the HINGE was mounted perpendicular to the plane the sweetspot is moving on during the impact interval. Like an hatch door mounted on a sloped roof. Kelley said that the clubface would remain in perpendicular to the plane during the impact interval of Angled Hinge Action, and would close during this period, but less than it would—by definition—with Horizontal Hinge Action.
Mr. Kelley not any have any high-speed pictures, video, or any proof whatsoever that any of this could and did occur during real full speed golf swings.
Since the advent of 6° 3D machines, like the AME and the MATT System, it has been shown that NO ONE CAN, OR DOES anything that approaches Horizontal Hinge Action near, through, or past impact.
Dr. Aaron Zick, a PHD in Physics, did a study for a presentation that he gave at a Summit held by The Golfing Machine, LLC.
He showed how the actual differences between MEASURED Horizontal Hinge Action and Angled Hinge Action at impact and separation would be insignificant—less than a quarter of a degree—even if they could be produced at high speeds during a golf swing.
When I asked Dr. Paul Wood how much the clubface closes during the impact interval, with real and machine golf swings, the "less than a quarter of a degree" number was mentioned again.
The real question here is this:
Why are we still discussing the differences in Hinge Action during the impact interval?
In the book The Golfing Machine, by Homer Kelley, Mr. Kelley hypothesized about the manipulation of the Hands through the Impact Interval.
The Impact Interval is the time from when the clubhead IMPACTs the ball, to the time when the ball SEPARATEs from the club. This takes place over a space of between about a half-inch and three-quarters of an inch. The Stopwatch time is in the 1000ths of a second.
He termed this HAND MANIPULATION "Hinge Action," because the motions the clubface made during this POSED MANIPULATION could be described by the action of a Hinge Arrangement.
Vertical Hinge Action was what would occur if the HINGE was mounted horizontally to the ground. Like an attic door. Kelley said that the clubface would remain in the same alignment to the target during the impact interval of Vertical Hinge Action.
Horizontal Hinge Action was what would occur if the HINGE was mounted vertically to the ground. Like an regular door. Kelley said that the clubface would remain vertical to the ground—like the door does—during the impact interval of Horizontal Hinge Action, and would close relative to the target during this period.
Angled Hinge Action was what would occur if the HINGE was mounted perpendicular to the plane the sweetspot is moving on during the impact interval. Like an hatch door mounted on a sloped roof. Kelley said that the clubface would remain in perpendicular to the plane during the impact interval of Angled Hinge Action, and would close during this period, but less than it would—by definition—with Horizontal Hinge Action.
Mr. Kelley not any have any high-speed pictures, video, or any proof whatsoever that any of this could and did occur during real full speed golf swings.
Since the advent of 6° 3D machines, like the AME and the MATT System, it has been shown that NO ONE CAN, OR DOES anything that approaches Horizontal Hinge Action near, through, or past impact.
Dr. Aaron Zick, a PHD in Physics, did a study for a presentation that he gave at a Summit held by The Golfing Machine, LLC.
He showed how the actual differences between MEASURED Horizontal Hinge Action and Angled Hinge Action at impact and separation would be insignificant—less than a quarter of a degree—even if they could be produced at high speeds during a golf swing.
When I asked Dr. Paul Wood how much the clubface closes during the impact interval, with real and machine golf swings, the "less than a quarter of a degree" number was mentioned again.
The real question here is this:
Why are we still discussing the differences in Hinge Action during the impact interval?
Michael Finney
New
Probably the ungolflike lurch that was made trying to replicate vertical hinging while attempting to hit the ball over 200 yards....
I guess you can make the "preparation" argument for shots 70 yards and under, but as soon as we're talking about a full swing, I think all you're really left with is some form of angled hinging....
A quarter of a degree during the impact interval is mighty small.....but as one dude said a while back - there's a tide inside your coffee cup
What is the name for that?
drewitgolf
New
Theorems and Postulates: If A=B and B=C, then A=C
If there is no difference between Horizontal Hinging and Angled Hinging, and there is no difference between Angled Hinging and Vertical Hinging, then there cannot be any difference between Horizontal Hinging and Vertical Hinging. Based on his presentation, is that a statement that Dr. Zick would agree with?
Time and Space are relative; whether it be a half and inch, 3/4 of an inch, or 1/10000 of a second. At least according to Einstein.
Did Dr. Zick provide any contradictory evidence to support his Hypothesis?
Can Pingman duplicate both Horizontal and Vertical Hinging?
Why are we still discussing the differences in Hinge Action during the impact interval? Because BBAx is trying to thinking on a higher plane or should I say a more "upright" plane.
If there is no difference between Horizontal Hinging and Angled Hinging, and there is no difference between Angled Hinging and Vertical Hinging, then there cannot be any difference between Horizontal Hinging and Vertical Hinging. Based on his presentation, is that a statement that Dr. Zick would agree with?
Time and Space are relative; whether it be a half and inch, 3/4 of an inch, or 1/10000 of a second. At least according to Einstein.
Did Dr. Zick provide any contradictory evidence to support his Hypothesis?
Can Pingman duplicate both Horizontal and Vertical Hinging?
Why are we still discussing the differences in Hinge Action during the impact interval? Because BBAx is trying to thinking on a higher plane or should I say a more "upright" plane.
Brian Manzella
Administrator
Maybe.
But there are folks that love the book, and they desperately want folks they learned the book from to be correct.
I can understand—been there, done that.
But...
Michael Finney
New
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