Cause and prevention of pulled shots

[G.O.L.F.]

I do tend to play the ball forward.

I have not heard of using a clubs bounce to establish shaft lean and ball position. Does this mean using the clubs design, i.e. sole flat with no bounce showing ?

Yep, using the clubs design/bounce to determine shaft lean.

Assuming neutral body/arm position; each golf club is different in length and loft, and when the bounce is soled squarely on the ground (use a hard surface initially) will have a unique amount of shaft lean.

You'll often see pros step into a shot by soling the bounce with the club in their left hand, setting their stance, and then placing their right hand on the club.

Using this technique was massively helpful for me - especially with wedges.

While trying to form a reply for you, I googled the subject, and found out that Harvey Penick called ball position the second most important fundamental. It's not too hard to imagine why he might say that.

I first heard about using the clubs bounce for ball position from Chuck Evans btw - hopefully I didn't butcher the explanation too badly. lol

 

[G.O.L.F.]

You'll often see pros step into a shot by soling the bounce with the club in their left hand, setting their stance, and then placing their right hand on the club.

Sorry, I meant right hand - i.e. Jason Day.

 

[Frans@France]

Assuming neutral body/arm position; each golf club is different in length and loft, and when the bounce is soled squarely on the ground (use a hard surface initially) will have a unique amount of shaft lean.

I do not understand. How do you determine the "bounce sole square to the ground including shaft lean" ? Bounce is measured from the middel of the sole depth AND with a vertical shaft. So what is "squared" exactly? Or do you mean leading edge of the clubface?

 

[G.O.L.F.]

So what is "squared" exactly? ... middle of the sole depth

Yep, when the club's sole is placed squarely on the ground, the proper amount of shaft lean is manifest, and by extension, ball position.



Picture example of resultant shaft lean and ball position.


So, using bounce as a guide in your setup will make your ball position more consistent.

 

[LDGolf]

Me again,

Been messing around with my ball position.

When I move the ball back in my stance it actually accentuates the pull. Even pull draw a 3 wood off the deck when I move it back.

When I focus on head behind the ball it helps with the pulls but I lose about 20 yards with each club. I'm not a long hitter anyway so this loss in distance really hurts.

any ideas ?

 

[trickyric67]

I was taught this "build your stance around the lie of the club" as a kid, but if you watch Jack Nicklaus and quite a few other tour players they play the ball within an inch or 2 of the left big toe. So is Jack wrong and if so why did it work so well for him not to change ball position based on the lie of the club.
I would add that I became a much better ball striker after using the consistent ball position of roughly left heel myself.

 

[birly-shirly]

Yep, when the club's sole is placed squarely on the ground, the proper amount of shaft lean is manifest, and by extension, ball position.



Picture example of resultant shaft lean and ball position.


So, using bounce as a guide in your setup will make your ball position more consistent.

I never understood this. If you compare different sets of irons, some clubs have a lot of bounce, some have a little, and I have some Hogan irons that seem to have negative bounce. And there's a relationship between the bounce angle and the width and camber of the sole too - but this ball-position methodology is based purely on the angle.

Does that mean that the 5 iron from each different set of clubs requires a different ball position depending on the bounce angle? And doesn't that take the bounce in the sole out of play and stop it doing its job?

IMOP - ball position affects too many other factors in your shotmaking to be determined solely by the bounce angle.

 

[Frizit]

I've been struggling with pulls and pull hooks for quite some time and this thread I have found quite interesting. I've watched Never Hook Again this week and have recorded my swing and I know my path was for the most part fine but I am still struggling with pulls and hooks which leads to my questions.

Based on my past trackman results and knowing that my AoA was steep and how Brian had tried getting me to back extend more to bring that number down I'm curious as to if this loss of axis tilt could be my culprit. It seems to really show it's ugly head when I try and swing hard.

I also have a tendency to top a shot or two off of the tee and hit thin irons even when I know my AoA is greater than it should be. So I guess my question is what is causing the people with this issue to lose their axis tilt and how do your correct it?

 

[G.O.L.F.]

@birly-shirly - The general idea is to use the bounce of the modern club's apex to establish a base point for shaft lean - this provides consistency. What you do with it after that - path, face and ball placement, depends on what shot you're trying to hit, and how you like to hit it.

@trickyric67 - If you're playing your short irons and wedges within an inch or 2 of the left big toe, I would humbly suggest you rethink that. No offense, just saying.

 

[G.O.L.F.]

So I guess my question is what is causing the people with this issue to lose their axis tilt and how do your correct it?

I think Brian nailed it in NHA 2.0 - the right shoulder drops in an attempt to start the ball to the right.

The way I see it, the center of your arc is then well behind the ball - at impact, face closed and closing, path already 'on the yellow brick road' straight to the lumber yard. lol

But I agree, not losing your axis tilt is a complex question, and golfer specific. But I would humbly suggest that it may be due, in a large part, to a faulty pivot.

Check out the way Hogan's hips and torso work onto his left heel. Doesn't take much to see the impact that pivot has on axis tilt.

You can see, he could practically have his right foot off the ground post impact - his COG is on his left side through impact.

 

[birly-shirly]

@birly-shirly - The general idea is to use the bounce of the modern club's apex to establish a base point for shaft lean - this provides consistency. What you do with it after that - path, face and ball placement, depends on what shot you're trying to hit, and how you like to hit it.

I think you're implying that my Hogans aren't modern. But your advice is at least as old as Harvey Penick.

I don't have a problem with a ball position that moves 3 or 4 inches through the bag - but I firmly believe that bounce is designed into clubs on the basis of what happens at impact, not to tell you where to put your hands, or ball, at address. If laying the bounce flat on the ground at address puts the ball in a good position, that to me is a happy coincidence.

 

[G.O.L.F.]

If laying the bounce flat on the ground at address puts the ball in a good position, that to me is a happy coincidence.

No, it is not.

The bounce apex is designed to coincide with the club's designed loft - neither lofted, nor delofted - and that's a fact.

 

[oldpro]

No, it is not.

The bounce apex is designed to coincide with the club's designed loft - neither lofted, nor delofted - and that's a fact.

So you mean right out of the factory retail clubs right?

 

[oldpro]

I think you're implying that my Hogans aren't modern. But your advice is at least as old as Harvey Penick.

I don't have a problem with a ball position that moves 3 or 4 inches through the bag - but I firmly believe that bounce is designed into clubs on the basis of what happens at impact, not to tell you where to put your hands, or ball, at address. If laying the bounce flat on the ground at address puts the ball in a good position, that to me is a happy coincidence.

No sweat Birly. You are like me an most good players who bend, grind and tweak so neither of us follow the standard rules. That's a good thing BTW

 

[LDGolf]

I think Brian nailed it in NHA 2.0 - the right shoulder drops in an attempt to start the ball to the right.

The way I see it, the center of your arc is then well behind the ball - at impact, face closed and closing, path already 'on the yellow brick road' straight to the lumber yard. lol

But I agree, not losing your axis tilt is a complex question, and golfer specific. But I would humbly suggest that it may be due, in a large part, to a faulty pivot.

Check out the way Hogan's hips and torso work onto his left heel. Doesn't take much to see the impact that pivot has on axis tilt.

You can see, he could practically have his right foot off the ground post impact - his COG is on his left side through impact.

I am one of those kinda golfer that can understand the mechanics, but I really struggle to put that mechanics into practice. I need swing keys/thoughts.

What is the feelings/keys people who have overcome these axis tilts used ? i.e. you need more back extension what feelings worked

 

[G.O.L.F.]

So you mean right out of the factory retail clubs right?

Yep - within a homogenous set of factory of fitted irons. Thanks for clarifying that. Sorry for the confusion.

What is the feelings/keys people who have overcome these axis tilts used ?

For those who 'hang back' on their right side and/or drop their right shoulder, the 'exaggerated feel' of one fix can be, in the downswing/transition, to feel they retain their spine angle and slide their spine/head left. That slide left can feel really foreign to a golfer who has been routinely leaning right in the transition and downswing.

Another could be Brian's "Carry Transition" in NHA 2.0 - which features rotation rather than a slide left, but may feel like sliding left to you.

Crack out your video camera in a face on view, record your current swing for comparison, and then record experimenting with the above, until you're getting a bit more 'hoganesque' with your transition and downswing.

Make no mistake, there is a learning curve, as you might imagine. You'll top a lot of shots, at first.

One other thing - and this is a stab in the dark because we can't see your swing - but golfers who hang back often swing with their upper body - rarely taking advantage of "stepping into" the shot, and harnessing the effortless power generated by using the legs and hips.

One more hogan video for you.

Hope all this helps LD, best of luck!

 

[LDGolf]

Thank you G.O.L.F.

Will keep you posted.

 

[LDGolf]

Hi G.O.L.F.

Thank you for your insights.

Focus on turning the hips and bringing the left heel off the ground has done wonders for me.

Without your insigts I would never have discovered this key thought.

 

[G.O.L.F.]

Hey, that's great! We can't go too far wrong, trying to emulate Hogan's pivot, can we?

 

[Insula]

I suppose this is an audio. Could you provide me any video link for the same?