This is golden information that took me dam near 15 years to figure out after picking up golf following baseball. You have to lay the bat head down to get to the ball in baseball and never have to worry about the positive torque to square a club face.
centered pivot fans....
- Thread starter Michael Finney
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This is golden information that took me dam near 15 years to figure out after picking up golf following baseball. You have to lay the bat head down to get to the ball in baseball and never have to worry about the positive torque to square a club face.
coach
New
Pete Rose's swing is representative of what is observed in all high level swings.
1. Note that during the swing Pete’s head and center of mass are stationary. Therefore, there is no linear progression of body. Although there may (or may not) be forward body movement during the stride, all forward movement flows to a stop before rotation and the swing are initiated. -- During the swing, the body rotates about a stationary axis.
2. Note that Rose does not extend his hands in a straight path. His hands remain back and are rotated in a circular path by shoulder rotation.
Video analysis of the swing has given rise to a “Rotational” swing model for teaching batting mechanics. This model is based on the principle that the body’s rotational about a stationary axis is the power source for the swing. The body’s rotational energy is transferred into bat speed from the angular displacement rate of the hand-path and torque applied at the handle (hands applying force from opposing directions).
1. Note that during the swing Pete’s head and center of mass are stationary. Therefore, there is no linear progression of body. Although there may (or may not) be forward body movement during the stride, all forward movement flows to a stop before rotation and the swing are initiated. -- During the swing, the body rotates about a stationary axis.
2. Note that Rose does not extend his hands in a straight path. His hands remain back and are rotated in a circular path by shoulder rotation.
Video analysis of the swing has given rise to a “Rotational” swing model for teaching batting mechanics. This model is based on the principle that the body’s rotational about a stationary axis is the power source for the swing. The body’s rotational energy is transferred into bat speed from the angular displacement rate of the hand-path and torque applied at the handle (hands applying force from opposing directions).
Brian Manzella
Administrator
Here is a video of Pete Rose's swing:
<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/Q1HEhdBf8N8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/Q1HEhdBf8N8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
Brian Manzella
Administrator
Well, Rose would either be a Aim Left push fader like Trevino, or a really low ball hooker.
Good swing though.
Good swing though.
Brian Manzella
Administrator
Just off the top of my head....
1. EVERY BASEBALL PLAYER lifts the left leg, everything we have learned from the scientists would support the golfer taking weight oFF of the left leg on the backswing at some point.
2. Linear speed can add to rotational speed.
3. Baseball players do not slide their hips like, for example, the S&Ters. Ben Doyle was adamant about NOT sliding the hips. Bubba doesn't much either.
4. Pull like crazy early, and have negative alpha (in-plane) torque late.
Bubba's speed comes from a really good pivot, high arms at the top, and more HANDLE ROTATION than anyone on Tour.
My success in this business so far is about 10% marketing, 20% delivery, 30% knowledge, 40% teaching skill.
Brian - regarding #4 in your last post - what is the difference between "pulling like crazy" and "tugging"? Just trying to sort this out in my mind. Also, at what point in the swing should you begin "rotating the handle" and how long do you continue to try and rotate it if you are going for negative "alpha" late?
Thanks,
Bruce
Thanks,
Bruce
Brian Manzella
Administrator
Great question.
An easy way to define "Tugging" would be this: Pulling on the upper arm disproportionately with regard to the amount you are pulling on the club.
By "handle rotation" I mean HANDLE ROTATION like I talked about in the Enso-pro and Bubba Golf videos, and here below:
So, "handle rotation" is NEGATIVE ALPHA.
coach
New
Thanks Brian, that's pretty much what I read on the baseball swing sites I visited. Funny too cause on there big swing forum they have 2 factions argueing there points, the rotational group verse the linear group.
Sorry about the detour on this thread before
Matt 4-L
New
For kicks and giggles I tried hitting driver by stepping into the swing by lifting my front foot like a baseball player (I made sure nobody was watching). I hit a big ole banana ball that was maybe 10 ft off the ground, I kind of chuckled and double checked nobody seen me do it and went back to hitting balls. I think there is some correlation between moving off the ball and power versus accuracy, I move off the ball less and less as my clubs get shorter to insure accuracy.
willgolfer
New
Matt 4-L
New
Yup, that's the most like a golf swing baseball swing I have seen.
Brian Manzella
Administrator
No S&T here...
Tony D'Antonio
New
Baseball batters cannot roll their hands into contact because it causes a 'hump' in the bat path. This leads to a lot of ground balls, at best. Look at a still photograph of any good batter at impact (right handed for this example): right palm is up, left palm is down. The rotation of the hands takes place after impact. I learned this lesson as a 13 year old going from golf season into baseball season. I was always a good hitter but this season I started off striking out 12 straight times and never making contact with the ball. It was only later that I learned that I was rolling my hands (ie. squaring the clubface) into contact.
Batting now days is way more rotational than when I was growing up in the 60s and 70s. Even pitching has become more rotational. It used to be thought that the power gain from sliding/driving forward with the hips and legs was imperative. I was taught as a young pitcher to drive toward home plate. It was only later discovered that most power in throwing and swinging a bat came from rotational forces and that forward motion was there for some momentum gain and timing. In pitching it is also used to get as close to home plate as practicial before deliverying the pitch. Sorry to be so wordy on this but I've spent as much time playing, teaching and learning baseball as I have golf.
Batting now days is way more rotational than when I was growing up in the 60s and 70s. Even pitching has become more rotational. It used to be thought that the power gain from sliding/driving forward with the hips and legs was imperative. I was taught as a young pitcher to drive toward home plate. It was only later discovered that most power in throwing and swinging a bat came from rotational forces and that forward motion was there for some momentum gain and timing. In pitching it is also used to get as close to home plate as practicial before deliverying the pitch. Sorry to be so wordy on this but I've spent as much time playing, teaching and learning baseball as I have golf.
this was definitely the case for me when i started golfing. could it be rectified with a super-strong grip or would that lead to other problems?
another major difference between baseball and golf swings is that in golf, with the exception of the teed up driver, the clubhead can't get below the level of the ball or else it's fat city. i think the vast majority of peoples' natural swing motions don't factor this in and it must be learned.
Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
That's what a lot of people try, no doubt. Works ok sometimes. Especially with the driver.
Jeter abandoned that "no stride" swing after about 10 games last year. He was late on inside pitches and lifting his lead leg was the culprit. He went on the DL last year and worked with an old swing coach in Tampa. His coach noticed he was not staying back on the ball like he used to. A few changes later Jeter has been hitting better than ever.
Brian Manzella
Administrator
The point I was making is that EVEN WITH a "no stride" swing, he got behind it on the "backswing."
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