"Centrifugal force" and muscle power

[golfbulldog]

In the context of the release of the clubhead...

If a pure swinger uses CF ( or throw out action caused by rotation of pivot - please there is another thread about the reality of CF or otherwise... )

and the pure hitter uses right arm muscle power ( I know that all golfers use some muscles )

but most golfers use a combination...

Is the relative amount of CF versus right triceps determined by the orientation of the clubface to the plane??
What i mean is if you rotate the sweetspot off the face of the plane earlier in the downswing ( like in twistaway)... does that mean that you use more right triceps and less CF in the release??

And, vice versa, if you leave the sweetspot on the face of the plane longer then you are better off allowing more throw out and less right triceps??


thanks for your thoughts! Just a few ideas i had this morning and not fully formed yet so feel free to destroy if they are gibberish.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Good Question!

Every Release if different.

But, the premise that "pure swinging" is "pure throwout action" is not something I agree with at all.

I think that with "pure throwout action"—depending on trigger delay and aiming point, you get "force across the shaft," something that I think is not really "pure swinging."

Below is the PING MAN. (be patient...it is a slow download, and any attempt at reducing the size made for a less visable clubface)

A PURE SWINGER of some sort (free wrist hinge).

Ain't no sequenced release there, huh?

[media]http://homepage.mac.com/brianmanzella/.Movies/PINGMAN.mov[/media]

 

[lia41985]

Brian, I see your point--the frames 3 and 4 frames after the impact frame show that the clubface is not laying on the plane. Rather, it seems to be vertically hinging, correct?

 

[JeffM]

Let me see if I understand the PingMan machine correctly.

It seems to operate according to a double pendulum swing action model. A torque force is applied at the central hinge point and that causes the central arm to swing at a "fixed" rate of speed, which is presumably user-controllable.

The golf club is seemingly attached to the central arm at a passive sleeve-joint, which presumably has a certain level of friction (certain level of "oiliness"). I presume that NO active forces operate at the peripheral hinge joint and that the club releases due to centrifugal forces - like a Trebuchet machine (see http://www.redstoneprojects.com/trebuchetstore/treb_animated.html )

Is that correct?

It is my understanding that a natural release occurs because the centrifugal force operating through the peripheral hinge joint eventually causes the club to move faster than the hands (peripheral hinge point) and that the release phenomenon occurs naturally/automatically when the club reaches the approximate position of the delivery position (when the club is parallel to the ground and parallel to the ball-target line and roughly along the toe line).

Is that correct?

See - http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/PingMan.jpg

Note where release of the club occurs. I presume the "precise" point of release is slightly affected by the i) speed of movement of the central arm; ii) weight of the club and iii) "oiliness" of the passive hinge joint, but that it roughly occurs at the delivery position - because it primarily operates like a Trebuchet machine.

Is that correct?

Jeff.

 

[golfbulldog]

Golf's "answer man" finds the best pictures again - thanks Brian - you have talked about this machine before but it is great to see it !! THANKS.

Karsten Solheim has done alot for golf!! Innovative mind!

A number of things strike me - one being the enormous base this machine needs to keep things stable when generating these kind of forces ! Our lower bodies do a heck of a job keeping us on our feet during the swing !!!

The backswing has the clubface completely square to the plane until the "wrist" cock - kind of twistaway like!! and as much of a lagging clubhead takeaway as has ever been seen!!! Also probably the only true version of a zero plane shift!!

The sweetspot and the shaft both lie on the inclined plane at the top of the backswing... up until the "left arm" rotor is approx parallel with the floor then "wrist" uncocks AND sweetspot moves off the shaft plane.... seems to be release simultaneously...

rather than complete unhinge of the wristcock to "level" and then rotation of the sweetspot off the shaft plane.... which was my previous understanding of sequenced release ( at least with minimum overlap of accumulator release)...

maybe this is a sequenced release with maximum overlap!!

So overlapped it is simultaneous!

BUT it does show that the sweetspot does not move off the plane of the shaft BEFORE the wrist uncocks though... but then pingman never had a lifetime of slicing to overcome!!

Thanks for the video!

 

[Brian Manzella]

Great post Bulldog!

I really hate to say this, but there would be a great service done for golf if all the REAL SCIENCE was figured out.

Sequenced Release is a "seems as if."

At least it doesn't exist the way some teach it.

And all this Hitting and Swinging stuff surely doesn't exist either—as "advertised."

Remember, my teaching improved a bunch the DAY I figured out what Mandrin was saying about "resistance to decelaration."

 

[Brian Manzella]

And if....

I can just hear the folks that will say:

"My teaching improved by light years when I separated the hitters and swingers."

My response:

Compared to what? The way you used to teach?

 

[hcw]

Face on view

...Below is the PING MAN. (be patient...it is a slow download, and any attempt at reducing the size made for a less visable clubface)...http://homepage.mac.com/brianmanzella/.Movies/PINGMAN.mov

...any chance you have a face on view of this?

-hcw

 

[starretj]

Remember, my teaching improved a bunch the DAY I figured out what Mandrin was saying about "resistance to decelaration."

Brian,
Do you think that this trying to resist impact deceleration was actually just another form of steering? Also, getting rid of this, does it help in the goal of letting the club work like a club?

I really hate to say this, but there would be a great service done for golf if all the REAL SCIENCE was figured out.
"

Brian and Mandrin, (others also),
I can't agree more with this statement. One issue with Mandrin's posts is that he disproves several of our beliefs, but we aren't left with an alternative. Now this is not a knock against Mandrin or any others, but it leaves us slightly confused at least and completely lost at the worse. I realize that there will not necessarily always be an immediate answer to replace what we thought was correct. We do need guidance as to what these revelations mean to us and our golf swings. I for one would appreciate it very much if when these issues are discussed and our belief system is rocked, that there is at least an attempt to discuss, if it can't be proved, how and what this changes in our swing and our thoughts.

Thank you
Jim S.

 

[lia41985]

Brian and Mandrin, (others also),
I can't agree more with this statement. One issue with Mandrin's posts is that he disproves several of our beliefs, but we aren't left with an alternative. Now this is not a knock against Mandrin or any others, but it leaves us slightly confused at least and completely lost at the worse. I realize that there will not necessarily always be an immediate answer to replace what we thought was correct. We do need guidance as to what these revelations mean to us and our golf swings. I for one would appreciate it very much if when these issues are discussed and our belief system is rocked, that there is at least an attempt to discuss, if it can't be proved, how and what this changes in our swing and our thoughts.

Thank you
Jim S.

Amen to that.

 

[rprevost]

I have tried to understand what is the standard view of "resistance to decelaration" and what Mandarin's is. Can someone point me to the right posts to get a handle on what the issue is, and why it is important for me to know?

 

[hcw]

"resistance to decelaration"

I have tried to understand what is the standard view of "resistance to decelaration" and what Mandarin's is. Can someone point me to the right posts to get a handle on what the issue is, and why it is important for me to know?

standard view: you can swing the club in a way that allows the clubhead to resist the deceleration caused by impact

mandrin's view: resistance is futile, no matter what you do the clubhead acts like it is disconnected from the shaft during impact (however it acts connected just before and after impact)

...my advice: focus on brian's posts and videos about how to hit it better and forget getting a handle on this issue as it probably isn't important for you to know or care about...

-hcw

ps- BM, any chance at the head on view of the ping man? I'll even say please!

 

[dbl]

Boy that Pingman video is great and lead to some great thinking and posts. Nice post Golfbulldog, though I don't know the max overlap part, you obviously enjoyed that video too!

 

[mb6606]

I notice that the Ping man takes the clubhead away facing the target nearly to the top. Then the clubhead swivels on plane at the top end. It has to re-swivel before contact. How can it swivel?

 

[dbl]

I have to assume it was designed with 2 axes of rotation in the wrist coupling, which doesn't seem to me to be a big deal.

 

[birdie_man]

How far can this thing hit a golf ball?