Clarification on a couple of points on the Release - short video answer by Brian

[SteveT]

@Michael Jacobs .... Thank you for that explanation and I'm sure you and Brian more fully explain "toss-out" on your 1.68 videos. Also the topic may be fully defined by your scientific team on the Anti-Summit videos. It's difficult if not confusing to attempt to describe what should be done in free body force diagrams... just like mandrin does.

Toss-out does work, but it requires additional adjustment in other parts of the swing to synchronize it to the entire swing. Also, Brian has said on the forum that Anti-Summit II will cover body torques and forces which will connect to the arm-hand-club action to achieve toss-out in the full swing. After that we can discuss body action in the context of 1.68.

(btw... on this forum, I am known as 'SteveT', not "freddy"... thanks)

 

[Brian Manzella]

"The club and arms must lead on the downswing, just as they should on the upswing. Not the hips and body first, which means shifting the weight as a preliminary to the body turning, and then the arms and club, as so many teach. That would be good advice to follow, if you wanted to cultivate body sway; but it is body action of every sort you want to keep down to the minimum."

"If I simply swing, largely with the arms and club, taking care that the club is leading all the way through and not the body or any part of it, the ball will be struck with the finest degree of delicacy but with enough percussion at the clubhead to whisk it awy two hundred and fifty yards or more."

"The golf swing must be regarded, primarily, as an action of the club. It slashes through the ball of its own accord, without let or hindrance, except the final power which a finished player may apply be letting his weight come around behind the shot at the very instant of follow through, but not before, mind you; and none of these movements will come off correctly if body action---and I might say wrist action---is permitted, in ever so slight a degree, to get into the downswing proper, which is largely executed by the clubs, aided and abetted by the arms and hands."

Harry Vardon

Thanks Coop,

It brought a tear to my eye and a smile to my heart.

Stabilizing the release, could this be an explanation for rory mcilroys funny looking hip motion at impact done to the extreme, perhaps that is what it looks like? Its an interesting feel though.

You betcha.

Brian ... how do the hands apply a "tangential" force to the horizontal club at the top? I can see it happening with the quick straightening out of the bent left arm elbow as you start the downswing, but if your lead left arm is straight at the top then the only force you can apply is with the rotation of the left shoulder pulling the left arm around... which is entirely a torque action.

What is the source of the force?

Do you realize how fast the left arm and right arm are straightening???

The out toss doesn't work for me, if I try to throw the club head out a funny thing happens, it goes out. I have a fairly straight left arm and have a more compact swing. Everything else seems to work pretty good so far, I am guessing I don't need it... Maybe Brian addressed it in the vimeo, but I can't view vimeo.

Just move the club away from the top wider than you did before.

If you need to.

Trust me, the "out-toss" and the "purely tangental" moves can be NOT done at all, and you can still "line the club up for impact" perfectly.

I personally DO NOT DO the out-toss when I am playing.

Brian has said on the forum that Anti-Summit II will cover body torques and forces which will connect to the arm-hand-club action to achieve toss-out in the full swing.

That will be covered for sure at ASII.

If ANYONE—and I mean anyone—wants a certain question or two to be asked at the ANTI-SUMMIT II, please email me at brian@brianmanzella.com and I will try to ask it.

 

[Bonesy]

Brian, if you don't out-toss what do you do or focus on?

 

[leon]

Brian, if you don't out-toss what do you do or focus on?

I second that question. How are you starting your transition if you're not out-tossing?

And how do I know if I need to out-toss our not?

 

[lia41985]

How are you starting your transition if you're not out-tossing?

https://picasaweb.google.com/Lukman...gCPDSsqLMhcG1ZQ#slideshow/5678727795048743666

 

[cwdlaw223]

lia41985 -

Are these pictures of out tossing or not out tossing? I suspect the move is very subtle. I don't even think about it, of course, I might not do it correctly.

 

[lia41985]

The out toss, as I interpreted it from watching the video, is different than what you see in the pictures I posted of McIlroy, Sadlowski, Johnson, Quiros, and Fowler. I'm seeing, primarily, side (lateral) bend in those photos.

 

[Matt Bryda]

I personally DO NOT DO the out-toss when I am playing.

I have found in the short amount of practice time with this concept that if I hit a bad shot dragging too much

on the next ball I add in a little out toss and it straightens out my shot and improves contact.

Of course this is done at the practice area not on the course.

 

[wulsy]

Hi buds, I'm back! Hope you haven't missed me tooo much

I found the BManz video interesting but not from a toss out point of view, more from the other IMO much more important issue he mentioned: the stabilisation on the chair not coming from the legs/feet.

This got me thinking about a phenominal strike I had last week with a wedge, normally my weak point. My ball was at the edge of a water hazard and I had to stand on the plastic cover of the water hazard which was muddy and very slippy to play the ball. Being the fool that I am, I decided to play it despite the risk of injury. I really just concentrated on not slipping while playing the shot and had the most automated release, sweetspot hit you can imagine and picked it clean away with no divot to 6 feet from the cancan. Beautiful.

So my point? A question for the scientists, Brian:

Should the INTENTION be to AVOID shear forces on the ground or to CREATE them?

 

[BertramSterling]

https://picasaweb.google.com/Lukman...gCPDSsqLMhcG1ZQ#slideshow/5678727795048743666

This one I think shows exactly what the new release video was all about for me, and what I needed to change..

It is only a slight move but for the first few frames the right shoulder remains turned and high, and the hands go wide. Although brief, the club actually has moved substantially and not been thrown out. Nothing is held off and from this point he can go hard to impact and *must* throw out the club to line up in time.

Just this move in transition is the difference between throwing the weight out early and trying to hold off into impact, to containing that weight properly and then freewheeling hard through impact.

 

[birly-shirly]

Brian, if you don't out-toss what do you do or focus on?

If you're not out-tossing - is it enough to focus on making and keeping a full-turn and slack in the arms?

 

[wulsy]

Toss-out does work, but it requires additional adjustment in other parts of the swing to synchronize it to the entire swing. Also, Brian has said on the forum that Anti-Summit II will cover body torques and forces which will connect to the arm-hand-club action to achieve toss-out in the full swing. After that we can discuss body action in the context of 1.68.

Maybe folks should read this again thoroughly because this tells the story behind the story: we're working with an incomplete, undefined and experimental system here.

 

[Richard the Nerd]

Brian .... couple of questions.....

1. the coupling pt is moving in space...and the clubhead is some how moving/acting about the coupling pt....would the golfer be pushing and pulling about that point (torque-ing the pt)? Kinda like a hockey slap shot type deal...push the blade forward and pull back on the handle...if you split the grip like hockey?

2. kenetic squence....I'm still trying to figure out a post you made earlier about the height of the hands at the top/plane angle....I think you said something to the effect of with lower hands you'd keep your back to the target longer (I could have this mixed up)....I would think with higher hands you'd have to keep the back to the target longer? I could have inverted your words on this if so I'm sorry. Just trying to figure out how it works with different depths/height at the top.

Nice video...makes sense.

 

[spmurph]

The out toss, as I interpreted it from watching the video, is different than what you see in the pictures I posted of McIlroy, Sadlowski, Johnson, Quiros, and Fowler. I'm seeing, primarily, side (lateral) bend in those photos.

Brian, if you have a moment to reply, can you please comment on this?