Club face squaring and torque about coupling point

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BertramSterling

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Just a quick question/thought:

This optimal point of applying torque (around the coupling point) that can now be defined...how does this relate to the club face squaring up?

Lets say for an individual the new model says the optimum release point should be later - now the golfer is holding off the torque a little longer and would (I assume) arrive with a more open club face (all things being equal). Is this a point where the grip needs to adapt to the optimum power release?
 
JEREMY5577

JEREMY5577

New
BertramSterling said:
Just a quick question/thought:

This optimal point of applying torque (around the coupling point) that can now be defined...how does this relate to the club face squaring up?

Lets say for an individual the new model says the optimum release point should be later - now the golfer is holding off the torque a little longer and would (I assume) arrive with a more open club face (all things being equal). Is this a point where the grip needs to adapt to the optimum power release?
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Lining it up late to me means to get the right elbow in deeper towards the target and the butt of the club to come up and in left of your left hip instead of your belly button area. It is a very athletic move to get a late line up. Ball flight is lower, but I haven't noticed an open club face, because you are still lining it up. If anything I noticed a draw. That is the deeper I get the right elbow and the later I line it up the more it feels like you will hit a draw.
 
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Lindsey Newman

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JEREMY5577 said:
Lining it up late to me means to get the right elbow in deeper towards the target and the butt of the club to come up and in left of your left hip instead of your belly button area. It is a very athletic move to get a late line up. Ball flight is lower, but I haven't noticed an open club face, because you are still lining it up. If anything I noticed a draw. That is the deeper I get the right elbow and the later I line it up the more it feels like you will hit a draw.
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I believe you're correct. Typically a deep elbow position will delay club head throwout (release) this in turn will also keep the path of the club head from the inside deeper into impact. This is also why the players who employ this technique favor stronger grips and bowed lead wrist positions. If the used a neutral grip or did not bow the lead wrist it would be block slices for days.
 
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footwedge

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Lindsey Newman said:
I believe you're correct. Typically a deep elbow position will delay club head throwout (release) this in turn will also keep the path of the club head from the inside deeper into impact. This is also why the players who employ this technique favor stronger grips and bowed lead wrist positions. If the used a neutral grip or did not bow the lead wrist it would be block slices for days.
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You can do it with a neutral grip, no problem. More lateral shift on the d.s. and stay more level going thru and way less arm rotation on the b.s. and d.s.
 
jeffy

jeffy

Banned
footwedge said:
You can do it with a neutral grip, no problem. More lateral shift on the d.s. and stay more level going thru and way less arm rotation on the b.s. and d.s.
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No so fast. Only 10% of those who devote their life to playing golf and eventually make it to the PGA tour have a weak or neutral grip with both hands. Sure, it CAN be done, but "no problem" is an overstatement. Clearly the strong grip players, as a group, are getting it done better more often.
 
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jbrunk

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Lindsey Newman said:
This is also why the players who employ this technique favor stronger grips and bowed lead wrist positions. If the used a neutral grip or did not bow the lead wrist it would be block slices for days.
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Wow, really insightful. I have been hitting block slices for 2 weeks coming from the inside with a weak grip and not bowing the lead wrist. I have not yet changed my grip from trying NHA.
 
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footwedge

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jeffy said:
No so fast. Only 10% of those who devote their life to playing golf and eventually make it to the PGA tour have a weak or neutral grip with both hands. Sure, it CAN be done, but "no problem" is an overstatement. Clearly the strong grip players, as a group, are getting it done better more often.
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Didn't say both hands and it's no problem if you don't believe that you have to twist your arms and hands. Why do players with strong twisted grips have to avoid face rotation? The more you twist, the more you miss. Why can a person with a neutral grip , open and close the face all they want if they wanted to, but don't have to?, but a person with a strong twisted grip can't.

If you were going to hammer a nail in a piece of wood, is it advantages to twist the hammer face?
 
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jeffy

jeffy

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footwedge said:
Didn't say both hands and it's no problem if you don't believe that you have to twist your arms and hands. Why do players with strong twisted grips have to avoid face rotation? The more you twist, the more you miss. Why can a person with a neutral grip , open and close the face all they want if they wanted to, but don't have to?, but a person with a strong twisted grip can't.

If you were going to hammer a nail in a piece of wood, is it advantages to twist the hammer face?
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It depends what happens when you take it back. The arms rotate clockwise as they move into the top of the backswing position. Because the hands and arms are already rotated clockwise at address for the strong grip player (right elbow pointing toward the hip, left elbow toward the target), the have less opening and closing to do. Some weak grip players swing on a very upright plane to reduce the clockwise rotation in the backswing, but that can lead to other problems, like being too steep at impact. Carol Mann did that much of her career and had real problems with her driving: lots of pop-ups.
 
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footwedge

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jeffy said:
It depends what happens when you take it back. The arms rotate clockwise as they move into the top of the backswing position. Because the hands and arms are already rotated clockwise at address for the strong grip player (right elbow pointing toward the hip, left elbow toward the target), the have less opening and closing to do. Some weak grip players swing on a very upright plane to reduce the clockwise rotation in the backswing, but that can lead to other problems, like being too steep at impact. Carol Mann did that much of her career and had real problems with her driving: lots of pop-ups.
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Exactly, you don't have to swing very upright to reduce arm rotation if you know how to do it. Lifting the rotation of the arm shoulder torso unit makes things a lot more complicated.
 
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BertramSterling

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I'm picking up what you guys are saying here..

However, I am thinking about this: "The golfer needs to apply a torque about the coupling point at an optimum time in the swing..." and the example Brian posted. I'm taking the torque about the coupling point as a positive twisting action at some point in the swing. Which in turn would have a closing effect on the club face.

So, what I mean to say is...if you (Jeremy) currently apply this torque late in the swing with a strong grip, but the model was to suggest you'd gain club head speed by applying the torque earlier, wouldn't you need to also change the grip (weaken, or face hooking it off the planet?).

What I find interesting about this is the opposite player to this. I don't want to start another Ben Hogan thread, but take that example. Lets say you can generate a lot of torque, and fight a hook. Should you weaken the grip or delay the application of this torque? Or both? And could this idea that Hogan applied a lot of torque lead to a very late application of it, and the subsequent ball flight that keeps people talking? (And thus make attempts to replicate it by any 'secret' irrelevant)

Or did I just make a basic error? :)
 
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footwedge

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jeffy said:
I'm not too proud to ask: how do you do that?
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I'm only saying how I do it and not saying that anyone has to do this , they can do what they like and that's fine with me.

I don't lift the angle of my shoulders in the b.s. and I don't over-rotate the arms, I use a neutral to weak grip position wise. It's like the difference between hammering a nail thats sticking in the floor where you would raise everything upwards and downwards or a nail thats in a door jamb and your hammering it more level.

I'm not saying there is no upwards there is but I don't have to try and create it. Lifting angles for me is death. It's right in Hogan's book and Moe N. did the same he just looked different doing it and he did have the perfect grip like he said, but that's just my opinion. Of course there's some other bits to it but I'm not here to sell my swing.

Why a 150+ page thread on a shallower d.s.?
 
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footwedge

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The right elbow deep in relation to the body or deep in relation to where the release point is are 2 different things. One can cause blocked wipes.
 
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JEREMY5577

JEREMY5577

New
BertramSterling said:
I'm picking up what you guys are saying here..

However, I am thinking about this: "The golfer needs to apply a torque about the coupling point at an optimum time in the swing..." and the example Brian posted. I'm taking the torque about the coupling point as a positive twisting action at some point in the swing. Which in turn would have a closing effect on the club face.

So, what I mean to say is...if you (Jeremy) currently apply this torque late in the swing with a strong grip, but the model was to suggest you'd gain club head speed by applying the torque earlier, wouldn't you need to also change the grip (weaken, or face hooking it off the planet?).

What I find interesting about this is the opposite player to this. I don't want to start another Ben Hogan thread, but take that example. Lets say you can generate a lot of torque, and fight a hook. Should you weaken the grip or delay the application of this torque? Or both? And could this idea that Hogan applied a lot of torque lead to a very late application of it, and the subsequent ball flight that keeps people talking? (And thus make attempts to replicate it by any 'secret' irrelevant)

Or did I just make a basic error? :)
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Well I'm not sure I use a neutral leaning towards strong grip and don't seem to hook much as long as I "line it up" regardless of when. It would seem trying to line it up late with a weak grip would be hard to control the club face. The latest epiphany I had is to get the right elbow as deep as I can then line it up when ever I am ready. This can be done without dragging the handle.
 
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footwedge

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JEREMY5577 said:
Well I'm not sure I use a neutral leaning towards strong grip and don't seem to hook much as long as I "line it up" regardless of how late. It would seem trying to line it up late with a weak grip would be hard to control the club face. The latest epiphany I had is to get the right elbow as deep as I can then line it up when ever I am ready. This can be done without dragging the handle.
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I just have one question if your trying to line it up late isn't that different than been late lining it up? So what does a neutral grip or weaker grip have to do with lining it up later, your still lining it up.. no?

I guess technically that's 3 questions...lol.
 
JEREMY5577

JEREMY5577

New
footwedge said:
I just have one question if your trying to line it up late isn't that different than been late lining it up? So what does a neutral grip or weaker grip have to do with lining it up later, your still lining it up.. no?

I guess technically that's 3 questions...lol.
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Yes sorry I edited that confused myself there, but I think you know what I mean. I don't know for sure if using a weaker grip would work or not never tried it. I like to hit a draw.
 
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