Club Path and Attack Angle - Trackman

[cwdlaw223]

Does "club path" (as defined by Trackman) incorporate the attack angle as part of its calculation for the club path? I believe it incorporates VSP and HSP, I'm not sure if it incorporates AoA and I suspect it doesn't.

If not, what really is the "path" that everyone keeps talking about that causes curvature? Is it more than one concept and everyone just lumps the concepts (AoA and club path) together and calls it path?

Shouldn't we use the term "clubhead orientation" or "resultant path" to combine the concepts of the "club path" and "attack angle"?

It seems to me that I can hit down on the ball and my "club path" be zero and still have the ball go to the left with the face at the target. Is that correct?

 

[Kevin Shields]

It does indeed incorporate attack angle and we always use "true path" or "resultant path" when speaking about said topic.

 

[savydan]

Club Path is the horizontal component of the True or Resultant Path.

 

[cwdlaw223]

savydan -

What's the vertical component?

If it's the AoA, why is it both vertical and part of the horizontal "club path" calculation?

 

[Tom Losinger]

"Path is not Plane" and Path is not a Path it is a direction at a moment in time.

A couple of things from what I believe to be true: (I am open to correction/discussion.)

First to quote my friend James Leitz "Path is not Plane" So while the "path"... the direction the sweet spot is traveling at impact, (A moment in time.) has a close relationship to the directional plane it is not the same because of the combination of the angle of attack and the vertical swing plane.

Now, if you had a true 90 degree vertical swing plane then the path would always be zero if the directional plane was also zero and it would not matter what the angle of attack was. (Path and plane would always be the same with a 90 degree VSP) Once you start to tilt the vertical swing plane you now introduce the angle of attack influence.

Using a hula hoop with three nails attached at three different points near the bottom works pretty well to see this. (Put one nail pointing toward the target before "low point" one at "low point" and one after "low point". The tip of the nail would represent path.)

My own thought on this....Path/resultant path whatever you want to call it is just not a good description. Even the TrackMan folks will call it "in to out" or "out to in" when it really is right, left or straight and it is very possible to have the path going left with a directional plane going right. (Angle of attack would need to be positive...after "low point".) It is also very possible to have a directional plane going left and the path going right because of a downward angle of attack.

To quote Michael Hebron "We are cursed with words." However, I hope that helps.

 

[natep]

This is my understanding....

The bottom vector of the d-plane is a straight line from where impact happens to a point somewhere in 3d space.

AoA gives you the vertical coordinates of that point.

Resultant path gives you the horizontal coordinates of that point.

Sort of like the AoA is the y axis and resultant path is the x axis. Put the two together and you can plot your point in space.

My apologies if this is completely wrong.

 

[cwdlaw223]

Is this correct?

club path = VSP, HSP & AoA (horitzontal axis)

AoA = vertical axis

resultant/true path = club path & AoA (the path that everyone draws/speaks of in relation to the clubface)

 

[natep]

I think when someone says the resultant path is say 4 degrees inside out, theyre just talking about the horizontal direction of the bottom vector, not a combination of horizontal and vertical.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Does "club path" (as defined by Trackman) incorporate the attack angle as part of its calculation for the club path? I believe it incorporates VSP and HSP, I'm not sure if it incorporates AoA and I suspect it doesn't.

If not, what really is the "path" that everyone keeps talking about that causes curvature? Is it more than one concept and everyone just lumps the concepts (AoA and club path) together and calls it path?

Shouldn't we use the term "clubhead orientation" or "resultant path" to combine the concepts of the "club path" and "attack angle"?

It seems to me that I can hit down on the ball and my "club path" be zero and still have the ball go to the left with the face at the target. Is that correct?

HAVE YOU SEEN MY YOUTUBE VIDEO ON ALL OF THIS???

 

[cwdlaw223]

Of course! I tell people to watch it all the time and it has changed my game for the better. I have that link saved along with your U plane diagram. Great stuff!

Trackman speaks of the D plane as a plane of two 3 dimensional vectors involving: (a) clubhead direction (AoA and club path) and (b) clubface orientation.

If the club path calculation involves the AoA, why do they define clubhead direction by AoA and club path?

Is the horizontal component of the "resultant/true path" equal to the club path and the vertical component the AoA? I suspect AoA and club path act as one, however, I find it odd that AoA is used to calculate the club path.

 

[Steve Greffen]

Of course! I tell people to watch it all the time and it has changed my game for the better. I have that link saved along with your U plane diagram. Great stuff!

I don't believe the video breaks down all of Trackman's definitions and I'm trying to confirm my understanding of the defintions. Trackman's website doesn't give me enough.

Does the term "club path" incorporate the AoA when Trackman makes it calculation?

Trackman speaks of the D plane as a plane of two 3 dimensional vectors involving: (a) clubhead direction (AoA and club path) and (b) clubface orientation. If the club path calculation involves the AoA, why do they define clubhead direction by AoA and club path. If it doesn't, then when we speak of "path" are there two (the resultant path based off of the AoA) and the club path (HSP&VSP))?

I'm always trying to focus on the definitions (at work and with Trackman).

I believe Kevin answered a large part of what your asking in his post.

 

[natep]

The bottom vector is a straight line that runs tangentially from the arc at impact.

 

[cwdlaw223]

I believe Kevin answered a large part of what your asking in his post.

Define "true/resulant path"? I now know this is the term to use when we speak of "path", however, Trackman doesn't define the words true path or resultant path. It seems like true path or resulant path is a function of the combination of attack angle and the club path (which are defined terms by Trackman).

I would assume that club path would just be a function of the HSP and VSP and then the combination of club path with AoA to get the true/resultant path. It seems like the AoA gets counted twice (and I'm thinking way too much, but I want to get it correct).

 

[natep]

If your resultant path is zero that means the bottom vector is aligned horizontally to the target. It doesnt matter if the AoA is down or up. The bottom vector could point into the ground or into the air either way the ball goes straight (if the top vector is directly vertical to the bottom vector, i.e. the face is also zero).

 

[Tom Losinger]

Define "true/resulant path"? I now know this is the term to use when we speak of "path", however, Trackman doesn't define the words true path or resultant path. It seems like true path or resulant path is a function of the combination of attack angle and the club path (which are defined terms by Trackman).

I would assume that club path would just be a function of the HSP and VSP and then the combination of club path with AoA to get the true/resultant path. It seems like the AoA gets counted twice (and I'm thinking way too much, but I want to get it correct).

Thinking is good thing! I hope this answers your initial question: The combination of VSP & HSP & AoA = Path. Thus the term resultant path? (A little new around here.) Path is a result of these three factors. It is at a moment in time and space...Impact. It is either right, straight or left. Not "in to out" or "out to in".

 

[Kevin Shields]

Define path? Path is path...where the clubhead was being directed at the point of contact. Down/up right/left. It creates a pathline that is pointing somewhere. The angle of the incline, direction of the base of that incline and angle of descent/ascent into the ball all form to create the path. Dont make it harder than it is.

 

[cwdlaw223]

Thinking is good thing! I hope this answers your initial question: The combination of VSP & HSP & AoA = Path. Thus the term resultant path? (A little new around here.) Path is a result of these three factors. It is at a moment in time and space...Impact. It is either right, straight or left. Not "in to out" or "out to in".

Am I correct there is no numerical calculation displayed on Trackman for "resultant path?" I never saw one when I hit balls on a Trackman.

What can it be left of? The target line?

 

[cwdlaw223]

Define path? Path is path...where the clubhead was being directed at the point of contact. Down/up right/left. It creates a pathline that is pointing somewhere. The angle of the incline, direction of the base of that incline and angle of descent/ascent into the ball all form to create the path. Dont make it harder than it is.

Got it! That explanation helped immensely.

 

[savydan]

Am I correct there is no numerical calculation displayed on Trackman for "resultant path?" I never saw one when I hit balls on a Trackman.

What can it be left of? The target line?

The resultant/true path is 3D. You need a 3D coordinate system to describe it - so they don't!

 

[dannyc]

Define "true/resulant path"? I now know this is the term to use when we speak of "path", however, Trackman doesn't define the words true path or resultant path. It seems like true path or resulant path is a function of the combination of attack angle and the club path (which are defined terms by Trackman).

I would assume that club path would just be a function of the HSP and VSP and then the combination of club path with AoA to get the true/resultant path. It seems like the AoA gets counted twice (and I'm thinking way too much, but I want to get it correct).

"path" = "club path" = "true path" = "resultant path"

"path" = AoA and HSP