Clubface Rotation and Ball Flight

[burners]

My question deals with clubface rotation (starting at first touch and on through to separation) and its influence on ball flight. I’m looking for some basic guidelines on the number of degrees open (at first touch), to the additional degrees rotated at separation, for determining rough-order ball flights (ie, slight fade, straight, slight draw).

Not that mere mortals can control such a fine level of clubface rotation through impact, but I’d benefit from more information on this issue. We can all sympathize with the confusion of using incorrect ball flight laws and the mystery of how anyone could have reached world-class level using that instruction. (A topic for my next thread.)

I struggled for years trying to understand what the PGA (and my college coach) said were the reasons the ball flew the way it did. I was lucky to see the light about three years ago, but am still surprised that very little (from what I can tell) of the new/correct information about ball flight deals with the actual clubface rotation. For example: to hit a small draw the clubface should be (+ or -) x degrees open at first touch and close to (+ or -) y degrees at separation. Does this clubface rotation dynamic play just as significant a part in determining ball flight as does the clubface angle (in relation to path) at separation, or is it somehow just a wash?

 

[vjcapron]

The rate of clubface rotation doesn't really matter one iota in the real world for controlling curvature. What matters is where the clubface is pointed at separation, more specifically, where the loft of the clubface is pointed, which is why having correct lie angles on the more lofted clubs is very important.

Aim the clubface where you want the ball to start, and control curvature with path.
Control trajectory with loft, shaft flex, angle of descent, spin characteristics of grooves and balls.

Easy enough. Don't make it too complicated.

 

[burners]

So far so good...

The way you describe is basically the way I try to work the ball now. However, I find it easier to cut the ball with only a path change (face aimed at start lime) than when trying to turn the ball the other way (draw/hook) using this method. My experience has been that most better players either "hold off" their release to hit a fade and "really" release it to hit a draw. I’m not a TGM guy (yet), but I understand angled and horizontal hinging to be along these same lines.

Unless I’m chipping the ball, I’m obviously not going to try and make a swing where I want to keep the face looking down the intended start line--been down that road before many years ago. Works pretty good for hitting weak fades.

So I guess my observation is that better players use a combination of path-induced and clubface (rotation)-induced spins to make the golf ball do what they want it to do. However, most of the current instruction deals with only the path-induced spin (incorrectly in some cases, as we all know) with little more than a "don’t forget to release the clubhead" for getting the other part of the equation right. Is there anything available from the manufacturers’ testing facilities or other sources that can quantify this, and is it important? If not, then so be it.

I think I know what is happening during the impact interval, but probably not well enough to write about it (yet). It’s interesting that despite the growing popularity of discussing "impact", that an important part of this topic is being somewhat neglected. Again, not being the expert, I think trying to achieve a "square" clubface (either to the target line, swing path, or whatever) is not only an illusive, but perhaps not a very constructive goal.

Discussion please. Why yes, "there is a bee stuck in my bonnet".

 

[birdie_man]

The way you describe is basically the way I try to work the ball now. However, I find it easier to cut the ball with only a path change (face aimed at start lime) than when trying to turn the ball the other way (draw/hook) using this method.

I'm in the same boat right now.

Used to have trouble hitting fades. (draws easy) Now it's more the other way around. "My shot" is a fade right now. (NHAish swing)

I can draw it of course........but lack control with the shot.

And I mean with variety (degrees of draw) because it of course would be way too simple to play one shot or play for straight. (I am nuts)

Some combo of twistaway and a full roll in the downswing is in order I imagine. (I am trying not to have to use a stronger grip just to hit this shot)

I'm also fooling with a flatter turn (for this shot) and a few other moves.

Gotta get the path where I need it and then be able to manipulate the face and setup (it does alter the plane line but...is not an "in-swing" move) to varying degrees I figure.

Finding it hard not to have the face too closed and/or swing too far to the right. (or get too OPEN/under the sweetspot when I turn flat...!)

Unless I’m chipping the ball, I’m obviously not going to try and make a swing where I want to keep the face looking down the intended start line--been down that road before many years ago. Works pretty good for hitting weak fades.

Like Brian's "twistaway"? (ala "Never Slice Again!")

You are prone to weak fades with this??

It’s interesting that despite the growing popularity of discussing "impact", that an important part of this topic is being somewhat neglected. Again, not being the expert, I think trying to achieve a "square" clubface (either to the target line, swing path, or whatever) is not only an illusive, but perhaps not a very constructive goal.

It IS interesting.

There is enough tech. now (launch monitors, "3d machines", etc.) that there are many who obviously know the real science of impact.

I'll just say that I don't think there is only one reason why this is not common knowledge.

BTW I have never been a guy who plays for straight but I don't see why you couldn't if that's your bag.

...

BTW again...good first few posts...uuuuund..........velcome...to.....ze foroom.

 

[Deadly_Scope]

The rate of clubface rotation doesn't really matter one iota in the real world for controlling curvature. What matters is where the clubface is pointed at separation, more specifically, where the loft of the clubface is pointed, which is why having correct lie angles on the more lofted clubs is very important.

Aim the clubface where you want the ball to start, and control curvature with path.
Control trajectory with loft, shaft flex, angle of descent, spin characteristics of grooves and balls.

Easy enough. Don't make it too complicated.

The rate at which you swivel the left hand into impact is one of the greatest concerns which golfers have to face (pun intended).

When your average hacker preforms his stroke pattern with a plane line left of target - it is natural and intuitive to perform a motion that will tend towards slicing. The same type of motion is possible for the mediocre golfer that has learnt to swing on a plane line to the right to slice however it would be counterintuitive unless the golfer was aimed correctly for hitting that shot which is unlikely because almost all have a fetish with 'setting up parallel'.

Maybe soon ill do a youtube video explaining a simplified version of wrist motions into impact and their effects.

 

[JonWil]

Looking forward to your video.

 

[Kevin Shields]

I'm in the same boat right now.

Used to have trouble hitting fades. (draws easy) Now it's more the other way around. "My shot" is a fade right now. (NHAish swing)

I can draw it of course........but lack control with the shot.

And I mean with variety (degrees of draw) because it of course would be way too simple to play one shot or play for straight. (I am nuts)

Some combo of twistaway and a full roll in the downswing is in order I imagine. (I am trying not to have to use a stronger grip just to hit this shot)

I'm also fooling with a flatter turn (for this shot) and a few other moves.

Gotta get the path where I need it and then be able to manipulate the face and setup (it does alter the plane line but...is not an "in-swing" move) to varying degrees I figure.

Finding it hard not to have the face too closed and/or swing too far to the right.



Like Brian's "twistaway"? (ala "Never Slice Again!")

You are prone to weak fades with this??



It IS interesting.

There is enough tech. now (launch monitors, "3d machines", etc.) that there are many who obviously know the real science of impact.

I'll just say that I don't think there is only one reason why this is not common knowledge.

BTW I have never been a guy who plays for straight but I don't see why you couldn't if that's your bag.

...

BTW again...good first few posts...uuuuund..........velcome...to.....ze foroom.

Birdie, if you want to hit a draw without alot of face rotation, you need to flatten your turn, yes, but get your hand path way more inside.

 

[dannyc]

Like Brian's "twistaway"? (ala "Never Slice Again!")

You are prone to weak fades with this??

i think he meant thru impact...i.e., vertical hinging

 

[birdie_man]

i think he meant thru impact...i.e., vertical hinging

Ohhhhh.....of course...! Obvious as it was, completely didn't think of that. Thx Danny.

Birdie, if you want to hit a draw without alot of face rotation, you need to flatten your turn, yes, but get your hand path way more inside.

That seems to get me really under the sweetspot in the backswing nowadays. (prone to big pushes) So it's tough cause my path gets more in tune with what I need but then the face is too open.

And then if I use twistaway (in backswing) instead mostly all I've gotten is huge hooks.

I haven't been to the range much lately so I have been kind of dabbling in everything as I go along on the course though. I've gotta really give this a good go this winter. I've tried a variety of things but not as thoroughly as I probably need to. It's been a big change de-arching my left wrist though...I still have a few other ideas I need to try. Moves that I've tried that I think may fit in better now.

I like your description BTW. (cause you can turn flat with different hand paths, yes?)

 

[birdie_man]

BTW I'm a little worried about jacking this thread real bad but...

Since de-arching my left wrist (without shanks this time) and finally getting a good handle on a fade...

My Recent Draw Experiment List:

(Tried So Far):

-closed feet
-closed shoulders
-bend left wrist more through the ball (but "D-Plane" deny-eth I do believe...)
-full roll
-twistaway
-loop to the inside
-flatter shoulder turn
-different backswing Hand Paths (*TM* Kevin Shields bm.com 11/08)
-stronger grip (last resort in my mind)
-closed face at address ala Jack N (yucky!...LAST LAST resort)
-Voodoo Magic
-Prayer

+ combos of the above.

 

[mrodock]

The rate of clubface rotation doesn't really matter one iota in the real world for controlling curvature.
Aim the clubface where you want the ball to start

You are correct on the above . . . however . . . rate of rotation has a HUGE impact on the line which the ball starts . . . if the face is rotating fast your going to be prone to missing your intended start line . . . a pivot stall or getting axis tilt the wrong way can ramp the rate of rotation up and you can hit it everywhere.

 

[burners]

Ok...but

Hmmm….seems like there are some differences of opinion here. Every good player rotates the clubface through impact…even Moe…despite what he thought. The correct ball flight laws deal with a static clubface, but nobody swings like that. So, again the question remains. What’s really happening with respect to clubface rotation (prior to separation)?

What if I just want to draw a straight plane line, along my target line…it would keep me from getting under plane and having to worry about the push fade/duck hook lottery. If I’m a little over plane it shouldn’t really matter. Make contact with an open, rotating, face that is still slightly open at separation. The ball starts to the right of the target, leaving about normal to the face plane and drawing slightly back because of the net hook spin applied by the rotation of the face. Little or no path-related spin bias applied in this case.

I don’t play this way, but have hit this shot on the practice tee. It’s very intriguing, but I guess I’m still being influenced by popular consensus on what I should do versus what I could do. Just trying to decide where the happy medium is. The rotating clubface is doing something, but why is it written out of the equation?

 

[Brian Manzella]

Whoa Nellie! WHHHHHHHHHOAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!

(with a straight plane line) I make contact with an open, rotating, face that is still slightly open at separation. The ball starts to the right of the target, leaving about normal to the face plane and drawing slightly back because of the net hook spin applied by the rotation of the face. Little or no path-related spin bias applied in this case.

The amount of rotation that happens during the impact interval is VERY, VERY, small.

James Leitz has had a $40,000 3D machine for a couple of years, and he hasn't been able to find ONE GOLFER ALIVE who can "Horizontal Hinge."

It just can't be done like it "says in the book."

So with almost all clubfaces rotating more like angled hinging through the ball, we are taking TENTHS of ONE degree. (I'll get better numbers at the TGM Summit from Aaron Zick)

So, the first thing you need to know is that PLANE LINE IS NOT COMPREHENDIBLE BY THE GOLF BALL!

I repeat:
PLANE LINE IS NOT COMPREHENDIBLE BY THE GOLF BALL!

The ball responds to TRUE CLUBFACE (ala "lie angle tool") and TRUE PATH (the 3D path of the sweetspot) during impact.

Period.

So, if your PATH was straight, and your TRUE clubface was ANY AMOUNT AT ALL OPEN at impact, you CAN NOT hit a draw on this planet, unless you miss the sweetspot, have an out-of-round ball, are had too much to drink and are seeing things.

But!

You could have a club that is too upright for you, you could have a clubhead that although it is tracing a straight plane line, is traveling DOWNWARD on that plane and hence is actually describing an INSIDE-OUT PATH, which will do it as well.

As far as manipulating the clubface while in contact with the ball...you might as well try to fly to the moon by flapping your arms.

 

[twitch127]

James Leitz has had a $40,000 3D machine for a couple of years, and he hasn't been able to find ONE GOLFER ALIVE who can "Horizontal Hinge."

Brian, what do you mean by this comment.... What is so hard about rotating the primary lever around a (conceptual) hinge pin in the left shoulder - keeping a Flat and Vertical left wrist. The body rotation allows this to happen and many pro's including tiger do this - What am I missing -

 

[dannyc]

As far as manipulating the clubface while in contact with the ball...you might as well try to fly to the moon by flapping your arms.

unless you are johnny miller...

 

[burners]

Brian, fair enough...

but from your response it sounds like there is negligible difference between "impact" (first touch) and "separation" conditions and how they influence initial starting direction and curvature, even with a rotating clubface. Is that the case? Not meaning to nit-pick just to understand. Thanks.

 

[Brian Manzella]

but from your response it sounds like there is negligible difference between "impact" (first touch) and "separation" conditions and how they influence initial starting direction and curvature, even with a rotating clubface. Is that the case?

Yup.

 

[Brian Manzella]

One more time....not.

Brian, what do you mean by this comment.... What is so hard about rotating the primary lever around a (conceptual) hinge pin in the left shoulder - keeping a Flat and Vertical left wrist. The body rotation allows this to happen and many pro's including tiger do this - What am I missing -

Horizontal Hinge action MEANS by Homer Kelley's definition, the clubface staying vertical to the ground.

Some say from impact to separation, some say toe-up to toe-up, some say impact to follow-through.

No matter which way you measure—IT DOES NOT HAPPEN, folks just don't do it.

It is a CONCEPT.

Not a bad concept.

Just, not correct.

 

[CarlSpackler]

The ball is on the clubface for about 4 ten-thousanths of a second. Not too many angles are going to change in that amount of time.

 

[twitch127]

Horizontal Hinge action MEANS by Homer Kelley's definition, the clubface staying vertical to the ground.

Some say from impact to separation, some say toe-up to toe-up, some say impact to follow-through.

No matter which way you measure—IT DOES NOT HAPPEN, folks just don't do it.

It is a CONCEPT.

So are you saying that from impact or say from seperation to end of follow through - where hinge action takes place that the clubface doesn't rotate through 90 degrees and end up parallel to the target line for some players. This is a horizontal hinge and a lot of tour players do this. See Tiger woods for one.. I know Aaron Zick said it doesn't happen at the TGM summitt but his interpretation is probably different to Homers' and I think that interpretation of the hinging concepts is what varies the response - if you want to call it angled hinging leading to horizontal tendencies then fine - but if you know the difference in the twO (which is basically the difference in the motion of the clubface - which I certainly don't need to tell you) then you can best match the hinge action for the pattern.. and that's what homer wanted us to distinguish if it happens exactly precisely, measured to the letter of the law - who really cares - still better than saying you released the club which is what those morons on the golf channel label clubface motion..