Clubface Rotation and Ball Flight

[Brian Manzella]

I doesn't happen.

Please except reality.

The 3d machines can measure this, and it doesn't happen period.

Nothing to do with Dr. Zick

He just said it didn't matter to the BALL, which is true.

Nobody has come CLOSE on the 3D machines to ANYONES definition of Horizontal Hinging.

Nobody.

"But its better than the Golf Channel," doesn't quite do it for me.

Neither does "the wake in a cup of coffee" explanation.

1. The BALL doesn't know whether you are Horizontal Hinging or not.

2. You can't Horizontal Hinge anyway​

Next.

 

[rprevost]

Brian, What is going on then? I accept our statement that horizontal hinging does not occur, at least with regard to the idea that the face of the club stays vertical to the ground. But something is going on, or it seems to be so, because you get different ball flights depending on the type of hinging that you think you are using, one lower with draw spin, another higher with fade spin. If it is not the hinging that is causing the different ball flights, what is?

 

[dannyc]

Brian, What is going on then? I accept our statement that horizontal hinging does not occur, at least with regard to the idea that the face of the club stays vertical to the ground. But something is going on, or it seems to be so, because you get different ball flights depending on the type of hinging that you think you are using, one lower with draw spin, another higher with fade spin. If it is not the hinging that is causing the different ball flights, what is?

http://www.brianmanzella.com/forum/...ed-vs-horizontal-dont-make-no-difference.html

 

[Brian Manzella]

Brian, What is going on then? I accept our statement that horizontal hinging does not occur, at least with regard to the idea that the face of the club stays vertical to the ground. But something is going on, or it seems to be so, because you get different ball flights depending on the type of hinging that you think you are using, one lower with draw spin, another higher with fade spin. If it is not the hinging that is causing the different ball flights, what is?

It's called the D-Plane.

If the TRUE CLUBFACE (i.e. lie angle tool point) is pointing up and to the right, and the TRUE PATH (absolutely NOTHING to do with plane line) is straight at the target and slightly downward, the ball will start on the D-Plane about 80% toward the true clubface and curve father toward it, and maybe past it.

No matter what.

The real POINT I am trying to make is this:

Hinge Action doesn't exist

Heavy Hit doesn't exist

Hitting and Swinging (per se) doesn't exist​

Just do what you need to do to get the ball flight you need.

That it what I do when I teach.

That is why no "book literalist" or any other "method teacher" wants a REAL TRACKMAN measured teaching experiment, contest or whatever.

They will LOSE HORRIBLY to anyone who knows how to get people to:

Control the TRUE PATH, the TRUE CLUBFACE and generate speed.

All of that other stuff is BALONEY!!!!

 

[Notorious B.E.N.]

Control the TRUE PATH, the TRUE CLUBFACE and generate speed.

All of that other stuff is BALONEY!!!!

Can I get an Amen?

 

[mrodock]

Based on this info should we abandon horizontal hinging, swiveling and wedding ring up and all that? Wouldn't it make more sense not to have the clubface rotating a bunch?

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

Based on this info should we abandon horizontal hinging, swiveling and wedding ring up and all that? Wouldn't it make more sense not to have the clubface rotating a bunch?

Again, CONCEPT is the key word. You can't take someone who is used to having a huge open face and tell them to just close it a little; you need to get htem to feel the closing effect drastically so they can learn it. Then you "un-do" it a little.

Make sense?

Just because we know what the right answer is doesn't mean you automatically try and make someone perform to the exact answer, it actually may take them longer to do it that way.

 

[rprevost]

http://www.brianmanzella.com/forum/...ed-vs-horizontal-dont-make-no-difference.html

Thanks Dannyc. That was what I was looking for. As I understand the argument, what is called in TGM hinging of various kinds is not what TGM says it is (particularly horizontal hinging), but if performed as TGM says to do it, hinging will have an impact on ball flight because, in setting up to hinge in a particular way, the golfer in fact sets up for a particular club face angle at impact (which is the only thing the ball knows). What explains the ball flight is not the hinging per se, but the D-Plane characteristics based on true face angle and true path at impact.

As I understand how BM teaches, he will sometimes use the TGM way of describing the feel of hinging (no roll, reverse roll, or full roll) if he thinks that a particular student needs it to learn clubface control that way, but BM does not use the language of hinging, because it simply is inaccurate as a way of describing what is happening (it is better described using D-plane, etc.)

Is this correct? Please remember that I am a bogey golfer and am not looking for a fight! I talk golf with my buddies all the time and am just trying to understand the issues.

 

[dannyc]

Thanks Dannyc. That was what I was looking for..

i figured that's what you were asking.

As I understand the argument, what is called in TGM hinging of various kinds is not what TGM says it is (particularly horizontal hinging), but if performed as TGM says to do it, hinging will have an impact on ball flight because, in setting up to hinge in a particular way, the golfer in fact sets up for a particular club face angle at impact (which is the only thing the ball knows). What explains the ball flight is not the hinging per se, but the D-Plane characteristics based on true face angle and true path at impact.

now you are getting it!

As I understand how BM teaches, he will sometimes use the TGM way of describing the feel of hinging (no roll, reverse roll, or full roll) if he thinks that a particular student needs it to learn clubface control that way, but BM does not use the language of hinging, because it simply is inaccurate as a way of describing what is happening (it is better described using D-plane, etc.)

say/do whatever makes sense to the student. but know the facts in case someone wants to talk s#!t...

Is this correct? Please remember that I am a bogey golfer and am not looking for a fight! I talk golf with my buddies all the time and am just trying to understand the issues.

no need to put up your dukes. the b man is just use to abuse by the "literalists" w/ agendas.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Based on this info should we abandon horizontal hinging, swiveling and wedding ring up and all that? Wouldn't it make more sense not to have the clubface rotating a bunch?

Heck no.

Some folks NEED to learn to twistaway, and twistaway works DESPITE the fact that Horizontal Hinge Action is a fairy tale.

Some folks just play better that way.

Horizontal Hinging is an OK "tip," "drill," or idea/concept to get folks to do something else.

But it does mean that Horizontal Hinging is JUNK SCIENCE, and that not only was the Kool-Aid laced, it wasn't even Kool-Aid.