Clubfitters/Equipment Gurus---I need some help with Iron Shafts??

[Frans@France]

Frans,

I'm obviously no expert (hence this thread), but in fairness, I did watch a video that had a little more information than the "promotional" Mizuno youtube videos. According to this video, there are various strain gauges at different points throughout the inside of the shaft. So, it's not just the gizmo under the grip that does the measuring. I think that's just where they decided to place the electronics/computer, or whatever it is.

Do you have a link to that video?

 

[Scott P]

If you do a lot of fittings with it then maybe you can explain how a machine connected to the shaft below to grip can measure all those values? or maybe it's just guesstimating it?

You as a fitter have no problem with the extra weight of the machine on the shaft in relation to the swing?

You have no problem using a GRAPHITE shaft for this? and then trying to fit someone in a steel shaft based on what the machine shows.

It is already a hint in itself that there are no real values presented except for head speed but only some unknown 1 till 9 figures for things like "Kick Angle, tempo"

All this reminds me of fitchip : Link to Fit Chip

Perhaps you should email Mizuno with your questions as I can't answer them, unfortunately I didn't engineer the product. As I stated earlier I don't use it as the be all end all but only as a starting point. I have found it to be pretty accurate, maybe you should try it and give us your thoughts on it. Most of my fitting is done on the Flightscope interchanging heads and shafts until we find the best combination.

 

[finncox]

Do you have a link to that video?

Below is the link that I found. Now, this video is more of a "local interview" type of video, but at around 1:40, the Mizuno guy explains at some point that there are "strain gauges running up and down this shaft," and that they are "strategically positioned" throughout the shaft.

While he's just a local fitter/rep., I found that part enlightening, as all they really tell you in the official Mizuno videos is that is "measures your swing DNA," or "measures 5 factors," etc.

Video Link

 

[ZAP]

Interesting. I think I might try it out next time I am at a place that offers it just to see what I get.

 

[finncox]

Project X are a very firm shaft and launch the ball high but with less spin; this keeps them from ballooning and losing too much distance because again, they launch higher. I know Richie said he balloons them but then either he was fitted incorrectly or he is somehow altering his swing to hit them because he doesn't feel comfortable with them which i have seen and even myself have experience with.

KB Tour is designed by the same guy who designed the Project X and also the out of production Accra Iron shafts; Kim Braley. KBS Tour is more of an everyday hittable Project X in my opinion; still launch high with reduced spin (compared to say a DG or normal rifle) but has more feel and slightly more spin than the original Project X shafts. Personally my favorite shafts ever were the accra iron shafts but they were ridiculously expensive and i only had a set because i won them in a raffle. I'm guessing but i would bet Kim Braley took what he learned from the Project X and moreso from the accra shafts and blended them to create the KB Tour which has been my result in playing with that shaft.

Rifle also came out with a Project X flighted shaft a few years back and are much more hittable for most people because they are flighted and not the same shaft like the original Project X which kind of hurts the Project X name a bit imo.

------------------------

Generally i find MOST PEOPLE fall into 1 of 2 camps:

1) Prefer stiffer tip / softer butt shafts (most dynamic gold products)
2) Prefer softer tip / stiffer butt shafts (most rifle products)

A lot of people can hit both (me included) BUT you, the player, generally will play better with one over the other.

EITHER WAY

Find a reputable clubfitter and go through the process, it's worth every penny to "know" and not have to worry about it. Plus when you think about wanting to "Try something" and have worked with that fitter for a bit they will most likely know if that shaft will be a good fit for you from others based on your current tendencies and can help you with questions and decisions.

Hope that helps

Jim,

Thanks for your detailed response. I am definitely going to work with a fitter to determine what is best for me. Having said that, in your experience, if I like the Rifle 6.0's that I'm currently playing, will I likely take well to a Project X, or is it really a whole different animal?

While I don't have two identical clubs that I can afford to take out of commission for testing, might it be a good idea to get it narrowed down to a few shafts, and then have my 9i and PW from my extra set (or two other consecutive clubs) installed with two different shafts to see how I like them? Or, does that kind of approach only really work with hitting two identically-lofted clubs?

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

Jim,

Thanks for your detailed response. I am definitely going to work with a fitter to determine what is best for me. Having said that, in your experience, if I like the Rifle 6.0's that I'm currently playing, will I likely take well to a Project X, or is it really a whole different animal?

Whole different animal

1) Constant weight shaft (like DG's) and not variable weight like normal rifles so every club will be heavier and you'll feel it.
2) It is much much stiffer throughout almost the entire shaft range than a normal rifle.

As a small aside, A LOT of people (not all) lose distance going from a normal rifle product into a project x because a lot of the time a person needs a normal rifle product is to hit the ball higher and needs a bit more spin; with the reduced spin of the project x i have seen many people lose distance. But again if you are the opposite you might pick some up, that's why demoing and fitting is important.

While I don't have two identical clubs that I can afford to take out of commission for testing, might it be a good idea to get it narrowed down to a few shafts, and then have my 9i and PW from my extra set (or two other consecutive clubs) installed with two different shafts to see how I like them? Or, does that kind of approach only really work with hitting two identically-lofted clubs?

This is a great way yes or i have even bought demo irons off of ebay that matched my own and thrown in a different shaft into them. Also a local clubfitter might have the same iron with different shafts in them purposely for demoing for exactly what you want to do. Might charge you a few bucks but worth it. Call around and talk to some fitters and tell them what you want to do and what you are trying to achieve and see who gives you the best answer/options.

 

[Frans@France]

Perhaps you should email Mizuno with your questions as I can't answer them,

Well, you could help answering them by unscrewing the unit from the shaft . I saw there are around 6 screws. Would really like to know if there any wires going inside the shaft to those "strain gauges running up and down this shaft" mhhh...there is no smiley for a big <....please...please...>

 

[mgranato]

I'm with the Jerry Lewis fan on this one.

 

[natep]

I'm interested to know how this thing measures all the data as well. I looked around for a patent on this thing and all I found was an article about a guy who's suing Mizuno for patent infringement for their "shaft optimizer". Here's a link to the article, which contains the guy's patent and his lawsuit.

The IP Golf Guy - The Golf Patent Lawyer (Golf Inventions, Patents, Litigation, Trademarks): Mizuno Hit With Patent Infringement Lawsuit Concerning Their Shaft Optimizer

The guy with the patent's machine is just a housing that sits on the shaft, without any strain gauges or anything.

Hopefully someone more knowledgeable than me can find the specs of the Mizuno product and post it up.

 

[Frans@France]

I'm interested to know how this thing measures all the data as well. I looked around for a patent on this thing and all I found was an article about a guy who's suing Mizuno for patent infringement for their "shaft optimizer". Here's a link to the article, which contains the guy's patent and his lawsuit.

The IP Golf Guy - The Golf Patent Lawyer (Golf Inventions, Patents, Litigation, Trademarks): Mizuno Hit With Patent Infringement Lawsuit Concerning Their Shaft Optimizer

The guy with the patent's machine is just a housing that sits on the shaft, without any strain gauges or anything.

yes, and guess what : it's "Lloyd Hackman and his FitChip" ! (see link in post #19)

Thanks for the link!

Add : What is interesting is that the patent for the Fitchip is indeed a standalone unit connect to the shaft without any independ strain gauges connected to the shaft. If the mizuno would have those independed strain gauges "up and down the shaft" then there is no infringement with the Fitchip BUT there could be infringement with the True Tempers shaftlab?

 

[wulsy]

A question to those experienced fitters out there, just as a matter of interest:

Can you guys narrow it down just by looking at the player hitting balls?

Secondly, is trial and error after the initial narrowing down the REAL process ebing used to make the final decision?

Thanks.

 

[natep]

Add : What is interesting is that the patent for the Fitchip is indeed a standalone unit connect to the shaft without any independ strain gauges connected to the shaft. If the mizuno would have those independed strain gauges "up and down the shaft" then there is no infringement with the Fitchip BUT there could be infringement with the True Tempers winglab?

Yeah, thats what I was thinking too, that he wouldnt really have a legitimate claim if the Mizuno product had independent strain gauges, only if it was indeed the same product. But then again, people dont need to have a legitimate claim to file a lawsuit, so who knows?

I've never heard of the True Temper Winglab, Ill have to check it out.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

A question to those experienced fitters out there, just as a matter of interest:

Can you guys narrow it down just by looking at the player hitting balls?

Generally yes and especially yes if they have you on a launch monitor; hell i've even had some fitters who know a bit about the golf swing and will simply adjust your swing a bit if that is all that is needed.

Secondly, is trial and error after the initial narrowing down the REAL process ebing used to make the final decision?

Thanks.

Yes, especially with a driver shaft because their are so many different options with so many different characteristics and feels that you may fit into a bunch of shafts and pick the one based on best "feel" to you.

 

[Frans@France]

I've never heard of the True Temper Winglab, Ill have to check it out.

arggg shaftlab..... sorry

http://web.archive.org/web/20061029051924/http://www.shaftlab.com/shaftlab/purchase.html
http://www.tutelman.com/golf/shafts/ShaftLab.php

 

[finncox]

So, I stopped by a local store that carries the MSO'er, and I wasn't that impressed. My experience may be colored by the fact that their unit wasn't functioning properly, but the thing just seemed cheap. The unit below the grip was sliding/twisting around, and out of the multiple swings I made, I only managed to get a full run of numbers on one swing. Every other swing produced error messages, or weird numbers that weren't possibly correct.

 

[Frans@France]

So, I stopped by a local store that carries the MSO'er, and I wasn't that impressed. My experience may be colored by the fact that their unit wasn't functioning properly, but the thing just seemed cheap. The unit below the grip was sliding/twisting around, and out of the multiple swings I made, I only managed to get a full run of numbers on one swing. Every other swing produced error messages, or weird numbers that weren't possibly correct.

The sliding/twisting will most probably generated those errors, because those movements will upset the accelerometer.

 

[sharkey35]

I had the opposite experience. The club worked but they couldn't find the software on their computer. Can anyone interpret these numbers:

80 4345

86 4244

84 4355

Thanks. Bob