Clubpaths, and Hogan vs. Tiger 2000
- Thread starter Dariusz J.
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Drives Averaging 369 through 11! It is hard to imagine!
C'mon now, you're better than that.How many of his 14 are US amateurs? And of those, how many did he come from behind on the last hole?
2008 he's one behind Rocco needing birdie to playoff or go home. And he won. Does that count?
Human’s can repeat their best learned patterns of movement, period. They don’t repeat an ideal of the optimal movement simply because it’s ideal or optimal.
Exactly how optimal can a movement be if it requires constant maintenance with hours and hours of practice hitting millions of balls? That’s not flourishing because of an optimal pattern based on anatomy and physics, but rather a pattern based on endless repetition and free
What about a pattern like Lietzke’s? Simple, repeatable, next to no maintenance, and successful. Those attributes strike as being more in harmony with our anatomy and physics than the opposite does.
BTW, I'm enjoying the discussion.
Agreed. Feedback from success is what tends to creates repetition IMO. Watch a brand new player. They top, hit the ground, miss and all of a sudden they hit it. They try like hell to repeat the motion that just succeeded. Whether it was right or wrong...
Make up your mind.One minute you are saying the hands come over the top.Now you are saying the downswing plane should be shallower than the backswing.Which one is it?
Do you honestly see that Manessero is doing this?
What you are saying is exactly what this forum has been talking about is the cause of underplane issues.An outward handpath and reverse tumbling club.So this is biokinetically optimal?
natep
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I dont know. I'm just trying to help clarify what Dariusz is talking about. Sasho macKenzie has published a paper that says basically that by laying the club off in the downswing, less torque is required to release #3 at impact and it happens at least somewhat more automatically (squaring itself up). I prefer to do this a bit in my own swing, although its not mandatory by any means.
The lay off move is in the transition,not the downswing.Big difference.By the time the hands reach shoulder height or just under,the club is no longer shallowing(reverse tumbling).
EJ,
I think you're leaving something important out, and that's the tush line. If the golfer rises up significantly off the tush line during the downswing, then yeah, there's an excellent chance he'll reverse tumble and run into underplane issues. Hogan (and also Sergio) also reversed tumbled at the start of his downswing (typically described as "laid it off"). But that wasn't a problem. He didn't run into underplane issues because he kept his butt against the tush line.
Hogan's (and also Sergio's) hand path was fairly outward as well. It certainly wasn't remotely close to concave, as Brian's excellent video illustrates below.
If a golfer performs a little reverse tumble and a little outward handpath as he starts the downswing, that won't necessarily result in underplane issues. Can't argue with frame-by-frame video of the greats.
<iframe src="http://player.vimeo.com/video/20641989?title=0&byline=0&portrait=0" width="400" height="200" frameborder="0" webkitAllowFullScreen allowFullScreen></iframe><p><a href="http://vimeo.com/20641989">lowbackmodel</a> from <a href="http://vimeo.com/user1093431">Brian Manzella</a> on <a href="http://vimeo.com">Vimeo</a>.</p>
You can still have underplane issues by maintaining the tushline.Look at Tiger with his 10deg inside out path.Tiger maintains his tush as well as anyone.
You are the first person to say that Sergio has a fairly outward handpath.He drops his hands as vertical as any golfer has.There was a mega thread on it.Not saying the above video is not true but the video angle is not ideal.The camera is pointing down the heel line.It should be pointed somewhere close to the line of the hands at address.This is a neutral position.
Interesting that you brought up Tiger and his 10-degree inside out path. I actually suspect that Tiger's current hand path is fairly concave and that that is the main reason for his underplane problems.
Now, compare Sergio to Tiger. As Brian illustrates, Sergio's hand path is not concave. At all. Thus, compared to golfers like Tiger who have concave (vertical) hand paths, Sergio's hand path is fairly horizontal. It's all relative.
You need keep the path shape of the hands and it's vertical and horizontal components separate to avoid confusion.Sergio may have a straight handpath but that doesn't mean they are moving horizontally out to the ball which is what I mean by horizontal.They are moving very vertically compared to most players.
Anyway,the current discussion is not about the shape of the downswing hand path.Dariusz is saying the downswing handpath needs to loop over the backswing handpath to be biokinetically optimal.He has never mentioned concave or convex being a factor.This is his OTT from the inside concept.People are asking for clarification on it.
Dariusz J.
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It is no disrespect to me. I am just an amateur theorist that works in macroscale and still willing to learn from true sciences.
Depends where - maybe on American courses it's fairly average to go below 85-90 each time. On our courses the average player has difficulties in breaking 100. On my home course, even worse. Also the average HCP (that has not drop for ages) in the world is about 20-something. Hogan's dream was that an average player should play in high 70-ies and low 80-ies. I say it is possible to make an average weekend hacker that do not have time for lessons or practicing to go below 90 on a less than very recreational courses.
People do not quit golf because they score 88 or 90 but because they cannot go below 110 despite lessons and lots of range hours. That's the truth, IMO.
See above. And what would you estimate as average score for a weekend golfer who goes to play every week or two without a single range hour where you live ? Just curious.
Not at all. He still was far best ballstriker. Simply lack of luck, getting older, even worsening putting. Look at this table and imagine (as Bolt said) how many times he would have won after 1953 if only his putting was decent:
Ben Hogan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
It's not only about feet position, also there is a big importance of corelation between feet, hips and upper body placement. Do an experiment with hammering a nail on the wall left near the floor, then read this:
Biokinetic Golf Swing Theory: The Diagonal Stance
Do the experiment once again and watch how Hogan, Knudson and Moe take their stances. Enlightening - at least for me it was.
Nate explained it very well.
Cheers
birly-shirly
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Where did you read that the world average handicap is over 20?
See: Business Ladies Golf is designed especially for lady golfers
I'm not interested in an average that includes non-handicapped non-club members. Average handicap is 15. They're going to shoot 85 - 90 on a regular basis. I don't think the average golfer is working extremely hard on their game or taking frequent lessons. And most golfers who do spend time on the range don't know how to practice very effectively.
Well I'm sorry I don't buy this.As Nate agreed,this flattening move should be done in the transition and early downswing.Hogan did not loop his hands outside in order to lay the club off.I was going to back out of this thread but it's getting more and more ridiculous.
You are talking about the carry of the hands forward with a flattening of the club to start the downswing?Yeah some players do this and I have no problem with it.Lietzke did it and BM does it.Hogan does NOT.
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Dariusz J.
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What is the average mens golf handicap in the world
Average Golf Score Remains At 100 | Golfblogger Golf News, Reviews and Commentary
I didn't call it a loop. In fact, it is just a subconsciously friendly move, as I explained many posts ago. I told you - you don't need to believe to make me happy. I know that both Hogan and Manassero do it which can be easily evidenced.
What's the purpose of disputing with a person who neglects obvious things ?
Cheers
Subconcious friendly move?Oh dear.
Regardless of the name,am I understanding correctly that this is the move Natep and I described.
The hands move OTT of it's backswing path to flatten the shaft during the transition and early downswing.This is the so called OTT from the inside concept.
This statement is the only thing I agree with you in this thread.
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