Comparisons and thought on Motion analysis v.s. Doppler

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Lindsey Newman

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So, high-end country club in a low tech (golf teaching wise) major city acquired the Taylormade M.A.T-T system.

A long time, highly decorated mid-am and his son (d1 collegiate who is turning pro) paid some decent cake to be analyzed.

The mid-am and I have been long time confidants on the game and swing theory also he knows my appreciation of Trackman. While they were with the host pro being analyzed the mid-am asked about Trackman to which the host pro said "Trackman is just a launch monitor".

He preceded to fit the mid-am and his son for equipment and then offer thoughts on their swing mechanics. I won't go into what he advised them on there swings, but rest assured the advice was not even close to acceptable.

I know Damon has the M.A.T.T system, Brian has Trackman and Michael has Flight Scope. I would like feedback from the Manzella instructors on motion analysis systems versus doppler. I am not trying to start an argument, but just some conversation around benefits and limitations, as well as, if you had to have "one or the other" - price not being a issue.
 
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Lindsey Newman

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I mentioned above that I was looking for feedback from Manzella instructors, but also from those of you with experiences with both technologies.
 
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ekennedy

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Lindsey,

I would think that most legitimate motion systems (I've only viewed Rob Neal's in person) use Trackman to verify their results. Unless, of course, they don't want their results verified.
 
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cwdlaw223

New
I've been on both more than once (second time on MATT was with Damon). I think the technologies are designed for different purposes, however, MATT isn't that far off Trackman when it comes to impact data. What's neat about Damon's system is that he has swing position data from a number of tour pros. I remember that my shoulder turn was something like 20-30*??? less than one tour player. My next swing I closed this gap by tourning my shoulders more but my clubhead speed went way down and I couldn't see the ball. You start to realize your flexibility limitations with MATT very quickly. That information is very useful in the right hands.

MATT gives really detailed information about the body while Trackman gives really detailed information about impact. You need a lot of room for the MATT system as well.
 
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OLIVER1

New
Looking at your own numbers on Trackman/FlightScope can raise an eyebrow or two but you're still able to conceptualize your golf swing misdeeds to a large extent; however, trying to replicate a tour pro's positions on the MATT system (a splendid feature) can be confounding to the nth degree

Brian alluded to the fact a couple of moons ago that without being able to see the internal workings of the body you're tilting at windmills when trying to copy positions. I remember overlaying myself onto Sergio Garcia's avatar throughtout the entire swing on MATT, and I don't think I could have made contact with the ball - literally - if you put a gun under my chin
 
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JDMAC

New
Lindsey Newman said:
Love the thoughts. I agree that optimal would be to have both on hand. Now, what if you had to make a choice?
Click to expand...

Are we talking about price here or utility? The doppler technologies are way more portable... That said the MATT system measures body and club data, so IF you had to make a choice and were willling to deal with setup every time you wanted to teach with club data, logic would dictate the MATT system or similar.

Personal experience tells me the flightscope or trackman is perfectly fine if your instructor knows what they are doing wrt the body... That said i feel they are complimentary. If i am hitting it awesome or "zeroing out" that is when i would want the bodydata as a reference point to go back to when/if things go awry. Then you have body reference points (amount of turn, sidebend etc) that you can try to get back to that might help you find that great club delivery again.

Just a student here... This is easy for me to say because i do not have to purchase any of these great tools that these guys make available to us.
 
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OLIVER1

New
Lindsey Newman said:
Love the thoughts. I agree that optimal would be to have both on hand. Now, what if you had to make a choice?
Click to expand...

A choice? I'd go with...

The hector two roof lights, with the discover cushions and the matching side stripe caravan.
And I'm terribly partial to the periwinkle blue.

Why wouldn't you...?
 
mgranato

mgranato

New
Launch monitor: A "true/false" test. Cold, unemotional, brutally honest, devoid of theory and feelings.

Motion Capture: A multiple choice test. More subtle and friendly, possible theoretical interpretations.

Full disclosure: I've only used the former. :rolleyes:
 
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cwdlaw223

New
Lindsey Newman said:
Love the thoughts. I agree that optimal would be to have both on hand. Now, what if you had to make a choice?
Click to expand...

No question about it for me. Trackman! My swing isn't going to change that much after 28 years, 2 kids, wife, job, etc. I can make changes/fixes quicker with Trackman. That's just my opinion. It might be easier to teach students with MATT since they can see what their body is doing.
 
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Damon Lucas

Super Moderator
Hey Lindsey,
The answer is that it totally depends on what you're looking for. If you're a player like cwdlaw, then a once or twice a year visit to a MATT system is very useful for tracking big swing changes and an overall sense of where you are with extremely precise body measurements. He should be on a Flightscope or Trackman at least once a month(probably more), to track trends, play around, work with ball flights, etc. The average person will benefit from both technologies, but only with someone who has a clue how to work with them.

A disclaimer about the MATT system and people who operate it. It is meant to be a fitting tool. It is meant to be used as an extremely good adjunct in selling clubs. The training and on going discussions within MATT operators center completely on fitting and sales analyses. There are some extremely intelligent and capable people involved with the Performance Labs. Seek out a Manzella instructor for anything related to instruction or if you want a second opinion on how to interpret MATT data. I would be only too happy to answer any questions, even after what seems like my 198th 12 hour day in a row!
 
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Lindsey Newman

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All great posts. I think it's a great discussion because I for one, feel there is value to both technologies in teaching and I still give the camera its due credit as well.
 
Frans@France

Frans@France

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Lindsey Newman said:
Love the thoughts. I agree that optimal would be to have both on hand. Now, what if you had to make a choice?
Click to expand...

I would go for the Trackman if I had to make a choice. That said I'm now waiting for the motion caption systems to become a bit cheaper because I think I'm still missing data. But then again after adding motion caption I'm sure that multi-axis force-plates are the next thing I would like to buy.....and then (if possible) non intrusive emg....eyetracking......
 
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Brian Manzella

Administrator
PROJECT 1.68

What are the scientific truths about the golf swing? What should you be doing ideally? What are the best players in the world doing and what have they done? What exactly made that ball go where it went? The last few?

Why are you doing what you are doing? Why does one pattern work for one golfer and not for another? Why does this particular problem keep coming back? Why did that last set of club delivery numbers occur? Why do the best men do what they do today? Yesterday? Women? Seniors? Juniors? Ams? Club players?

How do you get THIS player to do X? Y? Z? How do you pick the right words? Thoughts? Feel? Time to suggest?


Trackman is indispensable in this process.


Basically you have WHAT THE BALL DID (TrackMan type ball measurement)>>>WHAT THE CLUB DID TO MAKE THE BALL DO WHAT IT DID (TrackMan type club measurement)>>>WHAT THE CLUB DID THE WHOLE DOWNSWING (ENSO-pro type club measurement)>>>WHAT THE BODY DID TO MAKE THE CLUB DO WHAT IT DID THE WHOLE DOWNSWING AND TO MAKE THE BALL DO WHAT IT DID (MAT-T SYSTEM, AMM System, Neal System, type 6 degrees of freedom 3D system, K-Vest type 3D system, DBS, Catylist-type Force plates).


:)






 
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