Curious mind wants to know.

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Whenever we are dealing with image processing equipment there are two steps involved.

- An image is formed through a lense(s) onto some surface, where it is processed/captured.
- The captured image is viewed subsequently by reproducing the image on some screen.

For instance,

Taking a picture with a camera the image is stored on a SD memory card. It can subsequently be viewed by inserting it into the appropriate slot of a computer or TV.

Going back some time. Using a color slide film to take pictures one would have to develop the film and use a projector to view the pictures on a screen.

Hence there are always the two actions - creating, transforming and storing an image and subsequently a separate action to view these images.

Humans trough their sense of sight also deal with images and as far as the first step is concerned we are doing the same as any kind of camera. Focussing the image on a substrate, converting the signals and storing them in the gray matter of the brain.

Light falls on a golf ball, the reflected light via a lens is focused on the retina forming an image of the golf ball. The light sensitive rods and cones in the fovea transform this image into electrochemical signals transmitted via the optic nerve into the back of the brain.

But what about the second step present in all of our image processing equipment? What, in effect, is the mechanism - using the image memory traces, located inside the brain - responsible for generating the image of the golf ball in space outside the brain? ;)
 
In talking with Dave Brady, this sense of the object outside the body is handled in the striate cortex. I am skeptical, but willing to listen to any hypothesis.
 
But what about the second step present in all of our image processing equipment? What, in effect, is the mechanism - using the image memory traces, located inside the brain - responsible for generating the image of the golf ball in space outside the brain? ;)

Are you asking about the memory of the ball flight? or the actual processing of seeing the ball in flight?

My somewhat dated knowledge is that the memory or "picturing" something is related to the extrastriate cortex. The real time visual processing is done in the striate cortex. Both regions are in the occipital lobe of the brain and adjacent to each other.
 
Are you asking about the memory of the ball flight? or the actual processing of seeing the ball in flight?

My somewhat dated knowledge is that the memory or "picturing" something is related to the extrastriate cortex. The real time visual processing is done in the striate cortex. Both regions are in the occipital lobe of the brain and adjacent to each other.

spktho,

The text book explanations are about the various processes occurring between the moment photons enter the eyes and the final neural activities deep inside the brain and are indeed baffling by their immense complexity.

But it is all basically how images are processed and not how an image is created. It is kind of difficult to explain, that is why I used the parallel with optical equipment. One specific process for capturing and another specific one for recreating an image.

It takes a paradigm shift since we are so used to seeing things that we take it completely for granted. But try to imagine how all that you see right now around you exists, outside of you, in your awareness and try to imagine the possible nature of the link which must somehow exist between the neurons firing and these images.

In 'Consciousness Studies', Robin H, J W Schmidt and Shamantic, there is an interesting statement.

The study of consciousness may seem to be esoteric or outside of the main stream but it includes some very real problems in science and philosophy. The most obvious problem is how we can see anything at all.”
 
spktho,

The text book explanations are about the various processes occurring between the moment photons enter the eyes and the final neural activities deep inside the brain and are indeed baffling by their immense complexity.

But it is all basically how images are processed and not how an image is created. It is kind of difficult to explain, that is why I used the parallel with optical equipment. One specific process for capturing and another specific one for recreating an image.

It takes a paradigm shift since we are so used to seeing things that we take it completely for granted. But try to imagine how all that you see right now around you exists, outside of you, in your awareness and try to imagine the possible nature of the link which must somehow exist between the neurons firing and these images.

In 'Consciousness Studies', Robin H, J W Schmidt and Shamantic, there is an interesting statement.

The study of consciousness may seem to be esoteric or outside of the main stream but it includes some very real problems in science and philosophy. The most obvious problem is how we can see anything at all.”

I was wondering if you were also bringing up this type of question. The special senses, senses that have dedicated organs, are very interesting compared to the general senses which are mostly feedback loops used for maintaining physiological homeostasis. The special senses are used to gather as much information as possible from the environment in order assess risks and benefits of situations in our environment for increased chance of survival.

Yes, it is strange to think that who we are, our perceptions of the world around us, our thoughts, ideas, emotions, etc. are all controlled by chemical reactions within and between a few trillion cells.
 
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I was wondering if you were also bringing up this type of question. The special senses, senses that have dedicated organs, are very interesting compared to the general senses which are mostly feedback loops used for maintaining physiological homeostasis. The special senses are used to gather as much information as possible from the environment in order assess risks and benefits of situations in our environment for increased chance of survival.

Yes, it is strange to think that who we are, our perceptions of the world around us, our thoughts, ideas, emotions, etc. are all controlled by chemical reactions within and between a few trillion cells.

spktho,

What strikes me is that when you look at the seemingly enormous quantity and complexity of all that is gathered over time by many, for instance about the senses, paradoxically explains very little on a fundamental level. Some feel proud of scientific progress, I do not, and feel that we really understand not all that much as soon as it concerns living entities. The pivotal point is somehow the issue of awareness. But I have no clue how to grasp its interaction with the grey matter. :confused:
 

footwedge

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spktho,

What strikes me is that when you look at the seemingly enormous quantity and complexity of all that is gathered over time by many, for instance about the senses, paradoxically explains very little on a fundamental level. Some feel proud of scientific progress, I do not, and feel that we really understand not all that much as soon as it concerns living entities. The pivotal point is somehow the issue of awareness. But I have no clue how to grasp its interaction with the grey matter. :confused:


So you are aware then of your awareness. That's a good thing.
 
I have read in Carey Mumford's stuff him separating "seeing it" into two categories: "imaging" and "visualizing".

Imaging is said to be done wholly in the brain, with no aid from what the eyeballs are presently seeing.

"I see myself on the moon, hitting golf balls to Mars."

Visualizing is when you create with your mind something that is not there and "superimpose" that on your current environment. (on what your eyeballs see) Be it a ball on it's way, a line or lineS, or a robot monkey swinging from the trees you see in front of you.

"I am visualizing this shot flying with a draw and landing on that downslope down there in the fairway."

I have a theory that they are basically the same thing, whether our eyes are open or not. (or at least I wonder how similar they are in fuctioning, and what they have in common) Perhaps sometimes you are aware of what your eyes are seeing, sometimes you are not. (like hearing vs. listening...seeing vs. awareness?) What I mean is...if we "imagine" with our eyes open, I theorize that we are still "superimposing"...you just aren't doing in in a way where you are consciously relating what you are creating to the environment that you currently see.

Not sure if/how I should present these thoughts when there probably is boatloads of science out there covering the same topics. Just ideas, nonetheless.

CM does say though that using your environment when you can (visualizing) requires less mental manipulation. (things are laid out for you already, in your reality)

Good thread.
 
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spktho,

What strikes me is that when you look at the seemingly enormous quantity and complexity of all that is gathered over time by many, for instance about the senses, paradoxically explains very little on a fundamental level. Some feel proud of scientific progress, I do not, and feel that we really understand not all that much as soon as it concerns living entities. The pivotal point is somehow the issue of awareness. But I have no clue how to grasp its interaction with the grey matter. :confused:

I'm with you on living things btw. More knowledge, teaching, AND application (to daily life) needed. I ain't satisfied either. That's not meant to sound cold or negative. I'd rather it wasn't thought to reflect perfectionism either. It's just true. There's too much to learn, improve, too much at stake, etc. to fart around, rest, pretend everything is well in order.

There is a time to appreciate things, but you don't have to look far (if you are looking) to find areas for improvement. Some things cannot be controlled in actuality. (effort/intention is another story) But we can do better in basically everything. Shoot- even if more people just talked a little more about more important things, more would get done.

People = our greatest untapped resource.

As for defining how people function, I am not versed in the chemical, biological, anatomical science. And I of course am not saying it is junk. That would be stupid. But it brings to mind an interesting point:

Maybe even with anything, though perhaps especially things involving mental functioning, I always think it is just a matter of perception. That is to say, evidence/scientific method is what we have, and we should use it. But in the end reality is not "finality". Only perception.

I guess you could insert "The Matrix" movie as example here.

And I mean...I would wager that I actually am, in reality, sitting here in my pyjamas (the pants have little golfers on them btw tee hee) typing you a message...but the point stands- reality is only perception.

I suppose one could say with absolution that doing 'x' produces or tends to produce 'x' within our reality, but the most basic nature of that reality is another story, if that makes sense. 'What' vs. 'How'?

See...we don't even need to smoke The Marijuana to talk about this stuff. :) (or at least I am not high) Not saying there is anything wrong with some of that btw.

So you are aware then of your awareness. That's a good thing.

Ha..nice...

I like it though. If you ain't aware (at least at some point) of what you are doing, how can you hope to affect your behaviour, be accountable/responsible for it, etc...?

One must be aware, to represent The Tanaka Clan.
 
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spktho,

What strikes me is that when you look at the seemingly enormous quantity and complexity of all that is gathered over time by many, for instance about the senses, paradoxically explains very little on a fundamental level. Some feel proud of scientific progress, I do not, and feel that we really understand not all that much as soon as it concerns living entities. The pivotal point is somehow the issue of awareness. But I have no clue how to grasp its interaction with the grey matter. :confused:

You are absolutely correct. I have yet to find any respectable scientist in the biological sciences who is not simply in awe of how organisms coordinate functions at the molecular level and how that relates to consciousness. As the old saying goes: the more you learn, the more you learn you don't know.
 
In talking with Dave Brady, this sense of the object outside the body is handled in the striate cortex. I am skeptical, but willing to listen to any hypothesis.

Michael,

Your suggestion is in the domain of how and where the incoming information is processed, not so much how images are generated in space by the brain.

Try the following. Sit relaxed in your office chair and look at all that surrounds you, like your many golf trophies, golf clubs, impact bags and other possible items. Look at them all carefully and try also to sense the space they all occupy, the space between them and the space between them and you. This really helps to make the visualization much more acute.

Next start paying with the idea that all this is possible by many neurons all chatting and exchanging happily by firing electrical pulses at each as if they are all playing a game chasing each other using tasers. Shift awareness between the objects around you and your internal conversation about it all, and suddenly it might produce a shift in awareness.

It might start feeling somewhat strange even weird that the neurons chasing each other with tasers inside your brain are responsible for you being so acutely aware of all that is in the space round you. Somewhat similar to looking at these cute optical trick pictures with two totally different images embedded and allowing two possible mind frames, slipping from one to the other.

If after having done this experiment you are not quite capable to play golf for a while I am sorry but I can't take any responsibility for such a calamity. So you are warned, once you start exploring the hidden accesses of the brain, it can't be guaranteed that all will be like before. Some doors opened can't be closed. Happy exploring. :D
 
how organisms coordinate functions at the molecular level and how that relates to consciousness.

I recommend David Chalmers' "The Conscious Mind: In Search of a Fundamental Theory" here Amazon.com: The Conscious Mind: In Search of a Fundamental Theory (Philosophy of Mind Series) (9780195117899): David J. Chalmers: Books.

An accessible (usually) and brilliantly argued investigation into the "hard problem" of consciousness. The easy problem is how sensory data is transformed in the brain into, among other things, an image, or an emotion . Much work on this has been done over the past thirty years and progress has been made. No complete functional description yet exists for all sensory input and brain output but most in the field agree that the it is just a matter of time.

The "hard" problem, how brain processes give rise to, for example, what it is "like" to see red is the last unsolved question of conciousness. Many explanations exist. All involve arguments from metaphysics, ontology, brain function, quantum physics, the nature of awareness, brain twisting thought experiments and, curiously, zombies.

Chalmers has a theory but he honestly admits that there are deficiencies and his thinking has moved on since the book was published. His latest publication makes many important revisions.

I admire Chalmers. He writes clearly and simply, making a complex subject comprehensible to the amateur. He provides detailed counter-arguments to competing theories that challenge his view and does so in a way that is not defensive, negative, driven by ideology or ad hominen.

There is no talking down or pandering to the reader. This is not pop science/philosophy; and yet the book is still the best seller on this subject.

Read the book or check out his web site and experience a great mind at work.

Drew
 
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Thought some of you might find this interesting, it is from the book titled Bounce, written by Matthew Syed. It is an interesting read if you have the time, along the same lines as Talent Code but is written from a different prespective, and I think parts explain what happens with deliberate practice a little better. Here you go:

As psychologist Richard Gregory, who has conducted some of the most pioneering research on illusions, puts it: “Bottom-up sensory information is overridden by top-down knowledge.” The role played by top-down knowledge can be seen in the “plumbing” of perception: in the case of vision, there are more downward fibers from the cortex to the brain’s relay stations than there are bottom-up from the eyes. So when we look at, say, a face, there is more data traveling downward from the knowledge areas of our brains than traveling upward from our eyes. Perception is what happens when the two interact.
This is, of course, deeply counterintuitive. After all, how does the brain “know” what information to send downstream in response to upstream sensory data in order to create a meaningful perception? This is a question that neuroscientists continue to grapple with. What is known is that the process is extraordinarily complex, with the visual system containing an extensive web of feedback connections projecting from higher cortical areas to lower areas. What would the perception of faces be like without top-down knowledge?

We can get an idea from the remarkable cases where blind people gain sight late in life. Sidney Bradford, a British man, developed sight at the age of fifty-two after receiving corneal grafts at the Wolverhampton and Midland Counties Eye Infirmary. Here is how researchers reported his experience when he looked at the face of his surgeon after the bandages were removed: He heard a voice coming from in front of him and to one side: he turned to the source of the sound, and saw a “blur.” He realized that this must be a face. Upon careful questioning, he seemed to think that he would not have known that this was a face if he had not previously heard the voice and known that voices came from faces.

That’s right: When Bradford looked at a face, he saw a blur. He had access to the same visual information as everyone else (the light entering his retina was identical, as was the retinal image), but he saw it differently because he lacked the knowledge—drawn from experience—to mold the sensory data into a meaningful form. Even after a few months, Bradford was unable to recognize people through vision alone, even when meeting them for the third or fourth time. Instead, he had to rely on acoustic information such as tone of voice.​

Also, I found an article which goes into great detail on the top-down predictions made by the brain. It is found here:
Top-down predictions in the cognitive brain
 
I have experienced something personally which was incredible. One of the weirdest and most interesting experiences of my life.

I had had a stiff neck/back/shoulder for sometime. I had experienced some deterioration in my visual acuity, which I assumed was caused by aging. At least thats what the optician and the eye specialist told me.

I went to a guy to get my back and neck manipulated/massaged back into shape. After a couple of visits I woke up the next day and felt as if I was wearing glasses. I could see much better! I hit a few balls on the range that day and hit it great, seeing the ball better and seeing "the space between" me and the ball better in the address position. Everything looked clearer.

I went back to the guy and told him this. He told me he had experienced this many times with patients. He said that he hadn't improved my eyesight by changing the eyes but in fact by improving the blood supply to my brain, thus enabling me to process the images better. The tenseness had been causing some kind of blockage.

The long and short of the story: you see with your brain, not with your eyes.
 
this is why when i use the sonic golf club, i leave the headphones off so i can hear the sound down by the ball as opposed to hearing it right next to my head....it gives the sound some space
 
Thought some of you might find this interesting, it is from the book titled Bounce, written by Matthew Syed. It is an interesting read if you have the time, along the same lines as Talent Code but is written from a different prespective, and I think parts explain what happens with deliberate practice a little better. Here you go:

As psychologist Richard Gregory, who has conducted some of the most pioneering research on illusions, puts it: “Bottom-up sensory information is overridden by top-down knowledge.” The role played by top-down knowledge can be seen in the “plumbing” of perception: in the case of vision, there are more downward fibers from the cortex to the brain’s relay stations than there are bottom-up from the eyes. So when we look at, say, a face, there is more data traveling downward from the knowledge areas of our brains than traveling upward from our eyes. Perception is what happens when the two interact.
This is, of course, deeply counterintuitive. After all, how does the brain “know” what information to send downstream in response to upstream sensory data in order to create a meaningful perception? This is a question that neuroscientists continue to grapple with. What is known is that the process is extraordinarily complex, with the visual system containing an extensive web of feedback connections projecting from higher cortical areas to lower areas. What would the perception of faces be like without top-down knowledge?

We can get an idea from the remarkable cases where blind people gain sight late in life. Sidney Bradford, a British man, developed sight at the age of fifty-two after receiving corneal grafts at the Wolverhampton and Midland Counties Eye Infirmary. Here is how researchers reported his experience when he looked at the face of his surgeon after the bandages were removed: He heard a voice coming from in front of him and to one side: he turned to the source of the sound, and saw a “blur.” He realized that this must be a face. Upon careful questioning, he seemed to think that he would not have known that this was a face if he had not previously heard the voice and known that voices came from faces.

That’s right: When Bradford looked at a face, he saw a blur. He had access to the same visual information as everyone else (the light entering his retina was identical, as was the retinal image), but he saw it differently because he lacked the knowledge—drawn from experience—to mold the sensory data into a meaningful form. Even after a few months, Bradford was unable to recognize people through vision alone, even when meeting them for the third or fourth time. Instead, he had to rely on acoustic information such as tone of voice.​

Also, I found an article which goes into great detail on the top-down predictions made by the brain. It is found here:
Top-down predictions in the cognitive brain


Ckeller14,

Another very interesting theory but I don't think that it is quite for what I am after.

I am not trying to find out how the processing occurs, if there is some type of pattern recognition scheme at work, if there are complicated feed back loops operating in the brain, or if there is sophisticated interaction with stored visual information. I know it is all quite complicated and indeed very fascinating.

In quantum mechanics one also keeps digging deeper and deeper and it just gets so complicated that even a science fiction author could not have invented it all, even after emptying several bottles of scotch. The same is likely happening with the many studies concerning the investigation of the senses and the operation of the brain.

I am asking myself the question do we have a clue how my neurons inside the confines of my skull produce these magnificent images in space around and outside of me. Therefore, essentially, what is the link from the neurons to these images and thus not the link form the images to the neurons.

Hence not how photons are processed by the eyes and brain but how an image is created by the brain. If one speculates there to be perhaps some type of awareness at work than how to explain how animals can see, which I presume don't possibly have this awareness.

Below, very, very schematically how any image processing equipment operates.



Process 1 -The input information, photons, are transformed into an image with lenses on some processing substrate. The processed decomposed image information is stored on a suitable medium.

Process 2 – The stored decomposed image information is re-generated as an image with suitable optical equipment.

If we look at our sense of sight it is easy to identify the equivalent of process1 - Photons, image formation, transformation and storage. But where is the equivalent action of process2 ?

I had a quick look on Amazon and read some pages in the introduction of David Chalmers' "The Conscious Mind: In Search of a Fundamental Theory" and looked at the reviews and it appears that he is exploring avenues much closer to my basic question.

It is only by asking these seemingly obvious questions that one realizes to what extend traditional science is somewhat pompous with its claims. By producing more and more details it might appear that we understand things. But do we really?

There are already interesting theories developed since some time which go beyond the traditional science approach. For instance, Karl Pribram or David Bohm with their holographic type mind body models or a Rupert Sheldrake's with his interesting morphogenetic's field theory.
 
this is why when i use the sonic golf club, i leave the headphones off so i can hear the sound down by the ball as opposed to hearing it right next to my head....it gives the sound some space

I quit using the Sonic because the headphones kept falling off and wire always in the way. I never thought of doing this Michael. Do you put them in your pocket?

Thanks for the tip.

Drew
 
Anyone got experience with the Sonic Golf System? Is there much difference between the Pro Version and the Solo Version?

Sorry for getting off topic mandrin. At least it about the mind processing something ;)
 

ZAP

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This thread is interesting. I guess I have some reading to do. The only thing I wonder is how much a true understanding would help. Knowing that water is H2O does not help me when I am thirsty. Not criticizing the thread at all so don't misunderstand. I would really like to hear the ways you guys think it might help a golfer/learner.
 
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