Da Planes, Da Planes!

[hcw]

All the "plane" discussions recently got me to thinking. If I recall my geometry correctly, it takes three noncolinear points to define a plane. What three points define HK's various planes (ie turned-shoulder, elbow, etc.) in TGM? Thanks in advance!

-hcw

PS-I've looked in the book, but couldn't find them.

 

[DOCW3]

quote:Originally posted by hcw

All the "plane" discussions recently got me to thinking. If I recall my geometry correctly, it takes three noncolinear points to define a plane. What three points define HK's various planes (ie turned-shoulder, elbow, etc.) in TGM? Thanks in advance!

-hcw

PS-I've looked in the book, but couldn't find them.

hcw~The Plane Line where the Horizontal Plane and Inclined Plane intersect and the reference point of 10-6. It may be helpful to think of the Elbow Plane and Turned Shoulder Plane as the same plane set at different angles.

DRW

 

[rwh]

quote:Originally posted by hcw

All the "plane" discussions recently got me to thinking. If I recall my geometry correctly, it takes three noncolinear points to define a plane. What three points define HK's various planes (ie turned-shoulder, elbow, etc.) in TGM? Thanks in advance!

-hcw

PS-I've looked in the book, but couldn't find them.

In Plane Geometry, planes have no mass -- they are shapes in space.

The "three points" you refer to don't necessarily define the shape of the plane. You can have planes that are shaped like rectangles, circles, squares, triangles or any shape.

However, in plane geometry a plane is identified ("defined") by any three "coplanar" points -- i.e., three points that are lying on that plane. Thus, you can have three points -- A, B, and C -- on a large circle-shaped plane. A line connecting those three points would describe a triangle -- but those three points would still identify the plane (as would any other three points on the same plane).

For example, you could describe a street as Mr. Brown's street or, his neighbor, Mr. Green's street. That would identify the street, but wouldn't tell you the shape of the street.

Most people think of The Golfing Machine plane as a huge rectangle -- and, it could be. It could also be a large circle, square, etc. Mr. Kelley never described the shape of the plane -- he only said that it had to be larger than the cirucumference of the club being swung (2-F).

 

[hcw]

quote:Originally posted by DOCW3


hcw~The Plane Line where the Horizontal Plane and Inclined Plane intersect and the reference point of 10-6. It may be helpful to think of the Elbow Plane and Turned Shoulder Plane as the same plane set at different angles.

DRW

right...but how do you decide where the "Horizontal Plane and Inclined Plane intersect"?

-hcw

 

[hcw]

quote:Originally posted by rwh

quote:Originally posted by hcw

All the "plane" discussions recently got me to thinking. If I recall my geometry correctly, it takes three noncolinear points to define a plane. What three points define HK's various planes (ie turned-shoulder, elbow, etc.) in TGM? Thanks in advance!

-hcw

PS-I've looked in the book, but couldn't find them.

In Plane Geometry, planes have no mass -- they are shapes in space.

The "three points" you refer to don't necessarily define the shape of the plane. You can have planes that are shaped like rectangles, circles, squares, triangles or any shape.

However, in plane geometry a plane is identified ("defined") by any three "coplanar" points -- i.e., three points that are lying on that plane. Thus, you can have three points -- A, B, and C -- on a large circle-shaped plane. A line connecting those three points would describe a triangle -- but those three points would still identify the plane (as would any other three points on the same plane).

For example, you could describe a street as Mr. Brown's street or, his neighbor, Mr. Green's street. That would identify the street, but wouldn't tell you the shape of the street.

Most people think of The Golfing Machine plane as a huge rectangle -- and, it could be. It could also be a large circle, square, etc. Mr. Kelley never described the shape of the plane -- he only said that it had to be larger than the cirucumference of the club being swung (2-F).

i agree...my thinking is that this plane extends forever above, below, to the right and to the left of the golfer....but as you said, you only have to imagine it being larger than your club circumfrence...

-hcw

 

[DOCW3]

quote:Originally posted by hcw

quote:Originally posted by DOCW3


hcw~The Plane Line where the Horizontal Plane and Inclined Plane intersect and the reference point of 10-6. It may be helpful to think of the Elbow Plane and Turned Shoulder Plane as the same plane set at different angles.

DRW

right...but how do you decide where the "Horizontal Plane and Inclined Plane intersect"?

-hcw

hcw~

A good question and one that may generate different assessments. I keep thinking the answer is "depends" but have been unsuccessful with searches on different sites looking for clarification.

The Glossary definition and 2-F have the plane line passing through the ball location, which is consistent with the emphasis on the sweet spot plane. Advocates of the dowel drill use this plane line. Other book references like 10-13-D, pictures like 10-5-A and illustrations like 2-C-1 #1 suggest the clubshaft plane line established by the golfclub position at address.

Good Luck.

DRW

 

[hcw]

quote:
hcw~

A good question and one that may generate different assessments. I keep thinking the answer is "depends" but have been unsuccessful with searches on different sites looking for clarification.

The Glossary definition and 2-F have the plane line passing through the ball location, which is consistent with the emphasis on the sweet spot plane. Advocates of the dowel drill use this plane line. Other book references like 10-13-D, pictures like 10-5-A and illustrations like 2-C-1 #1 suggest the clubshaft plane line established by the golfclub position at address.

Good Luck.

DRW

yeah, it is a good question w/o an easily discoverable answer isn't it?...i'm currently going for working on feeling the sweet-spot and it's lag and figuring out how to set-up (which i think is 90% of the battle) for your swing to accelerate the sweet-spot thru impact...it seems to be working...

-hcw

 

[Tom Bartlett]

The three points you are looking for in my opinion would be any two points on your plane line (let's use the one drawn through the ball and generally the same as the target line) and one of homer's plane designations;Hands, Elbow, Square Shoulder, etc. of course those are just a few of an infinite number of "third points".

 

[DOCW3]

quote:Originally posted by hcw

quote:
hcw~

A good question and one that may generate different assessments. I keep thinking the answer is "depends" but have been unsuccessful with searches on different sites looking for clarification.

The Glossary definition and 2-F have the plane line passing through the ball location, which is consistent with the emphasis on the sweet spot plane. Advocates of the dowel drill use this plane line. Other book references like 10-13-D, pictures like 10-5-A and illustrations like 2-C-1 #1 suggest the clubshaft plane line established by the golfclub position at address.

Good Luck.

DRW

yeah, it is a good question w/o an easily discoverable answer isn't it?...i'm currently going for working on feeling the sweet-spot and it's lag and figuring out how to set-up (which i think is 90% of the battle) for your swing to accelerate the sweet-spot thru impact...it seems to be working...

-hcw

Figuring out how to set-up but also repeating it!! An important reason for seeing an AI.

Relative to your origianal question, this has been mentioned elsewhere but here is what Homer Kelley had to say in an audio, "I think if I started playing golf, all I would think about is my right forearm alignment, positioned right so that my right forearm... so that my left wrist is flat level and vertical. All my swing would be... take my hands up according to my right forearm and get them back into impact with the right forearm on its angle of approach......."

DRW

 

[hcw]

quote:Originally posted by Tom Bartlett

The three points you are looking for in my opinion would be any two points on your plane line (let's use the one drawn through the ball and generally the same as the target line) and one of homer's plane designations;Hands, Elbow, Square Shoulder, etc. of course those are just a few of an infinite number of "third points".

tom, thanks for the response...i agree with you if the plane and target lines are parallel (10-5-A,B,C; pg 150)...but it was looking at 10-5-D,E that brought this question to mind as those plane lines can't use the target...my thinking at the moment (from reading 2-F) for the sweet-spot plane is that the three points are 1) the body definition part (ie turned shoulder, elbow, etc); 2) the impact fix position of the pressure point used for monitoring lag; and 3) the impact fix position of the sweetspot...from looking at 10-5 and the plastic, i was thinking there must be a different point #3 for the inclined plane, but now i think the difference between the interesection of the plastic sheet and the ground and the target line (in 10-5-A,B,C) is just due to the physical limitations of the plastic sheet...ie you can't actually have the shaft/hands and the sweet spot in the same space as the plastic, so you make it in a slightly different but parallel plane (but maybe this was obvious to less dense folks)...cheers!

-hcw

 

[Tom Bartlett]

quote:Originally posted by hcw

quote:Originally posted by Tom Bartlett

The three points you are looking for in my opinion would be any two points on your plane line (let's use the one drawn through the ball and generally the same as the target line) and one of homer's plane designations;Hands, Elbow, Square Shoulder, etc. of course those are just a few of an infinite number of "third points".

tom, thanks for the response...i agree with you if the plane and target lines are parallel (10-5-A,B,C; pg 150)...but it was looking at 10-5-D,E that brought this question to mind as those plane lines can't use the target...my thinking at the moment (from reading 2-F) for the sweet-spot plane is that the three points are 1) the body definition part (ie turned shoulder, elbow, etc); 2) the impact fix position of the pressure point used for monitoring lag; and 3) the impact fix position of the sweetspot...from looking at 10-5 and the plastic, i was thinking there must be a different point #3 for the inclined plane, but now i think the difference between the interesection of the plastic sheet and the ground and the target line (in 10-5-A,B,C) is just due to the physical limitations of the plastic sheet...ie you can't actually have the shaft/hands and the sweet spot in the same space as the plastic, so you make it in a slightly different but parallel plane (but maybe this was obvious to less dense folks)...cheers!

-hcw

O.K. but, can you use those three points if there is a shift???
If you want to use the #3 pressure point and the sweet spot of the club, my third would then be the ball.
I used the plane line, even if it is different than target line, because it never changes (hopefuly)

 

[hcw]

quote:Originally posted by Tom Bartlett
O.K. but, can you use those three points if there is a shift???
If you want to use the #3 pressure point and the sweet spot of the club, my third would then be the ball.
I used the plane line, even if it is different than target line, because it never changes (hopefuly)

i believe so, if you shift, then you move from the (body-part#1, LagPressurePoint@ImpactFix, SweetSpot@ImpactFix) plane to the (body-part#2, LagPressurePoint@ImpactFix, SweetSpot@ImpactFix) plane...i was thinking that the SweetSpot@ImpactFix and the Ball (at least it's impact point) are essentially identical...in fact this is where the plane line and target line intersect if they are not identical

-hcw

 

[hcw]

quote:Originally posted by DOCW3
Figuring out how to set-up but also repeating it!! An important reason for seeing an AI.

Relative to your origianal question, this has been mentioned elsewhere but here is what Homer Kelley had to say in an audio, "I think if I started playing golf, all I would think about is my right forearm alignment, positioned right so that my right forearm... so that my left wrist is flat level and vertical. All my swing would be... take my hands up according to my right forearm and get them back into impact with the right forearm on its angle of approach......."

DRW

all good thoughts!

 

[DOCW3]

quote:Originally posted by hcw

quote:Originally posted by Tom Bartlett

The three points you are looking for in my opinion would be any two points on your plane line (let's use the one drawn through the ball and generally the same as the target line) and one of homer's plane designations;Hands, Elbow, Square Shoulder, etc. of course those are just a few of an infinite number of "third points".

tom, thanks for the response...i agree with you if the plane and target lines are parallel (10-5-A,B,C; pg 150)...but it was looking at 10-5-D,E that brought this question to mind as those plane lines can't use the target...my thinking at the moment (from reading 2-F) for the sweet-spot plane is that the three points are 1) the body definition part (ie turned shoulder, elbow, etc); 2) the impact fix position of the pressure point used for monitoring lag; and 3) the impact fix position of the sweetspot...from looking at 10-5 and the plastic, i was thinking there must be a different point #3 for the inclined plane, but now i think the difference between the interesection of the plastic sheet and the ground and the target line (in 10-5-A,B,C) is just due to the physical limitations of the plastic sheet...ie you can't actually have the shaft/hands and the sweet spot in the same space as the plastic, so you make it in a slightly different but parallel plane (but maybe this was obvious to less dense folks)...cheers!

-hcw

hcw~

One source, Ben Doyle, clearly distinguishes between the Inclined Plane Line and the Sweet Spot line in his How to Build a G.O.L.F. Game video. He places two parallel dowels on the ground explaining that there are two and referring to them by name. The third paragraph of 4-D-0 and observing the difference between the inclined planes constructed for 10-5 and 10-19 may be helpful.

My understanding is that PP3 is not a factor in defining TGM Plane Angle. PP3 is a factor in determining the plane angle the player is on during the stroke. And, PP3 is a factor as the lens for directing thrust.

Except for Address and entering Impact, I believe the sweet spot and shaft are on the same plane. For me, the challenge is the concept of the shaft as it "remains unwavering on the face of this Inclined Plane" rotating around the sweet spot plane.


DRW

 

[hcw]

quote:Originally posted by DOCW3
hcw~

One source, Ben Doyle, clearly distinguishes between the Inclined Plane Line and the Sweet Spot line in his How to Build a G.O.L.F. Game video. He places two parallel dowels on the ground explaining that there are two and referring to them by name. The third paragraph of 4-D-0 and observing the difference between the inclined planes constructed for 10-5 and 10-19 may be helpful.

My understanding is that PP3 is not a factor in defining TGM Plane Angle. PP3 is a factor in determining the plane angle the player is on during the stroke. And, PP3 is a factor as the lens for directing thrust.

Except for Address and entering Impact, I believe the sweet spot and shaft are on the same plane. For me, the challenge is the concept of the shaft as it "remains unwavering on the face of this Inclined Plane" rotating around the sweet spot plane.


DRW

drw,
i put this question on lbgf, and today while looking at another thread there the sketch 1-L was mentioned...after looking at that i flopped back to the conclusion that TGMs inclined plane and sweetspot plane have different "third points": the bottom of the shaft for the inclined plane and the sweetspot for the sweetspot plane...

for PP3 and Plane determination, 2-F, end of second paragraph: "Both Planes always pass through the Lag Pressure Point."

for the sweetspt and shaft being on the same plane, also 2-F, end of second paragraph: "If Lag Pressure is lost the Hands tend to start the hosel (instead of the Sweet Spot) toward Impact-that mysterious 'Shank'. When in doubt 'Turn' the Clubface so both the Clubshaft and the Sweet Spot will be on the same Plane at the Start Down."...maybe someone more knowledgable will chime in, but i don't think the idea is that the shaft rotates around the SweetSpot during the entire stroke, but just until they are on the same plane on the backswing and then rerotate back off during release...how this can work and the shaft remain "unwavering on the face of this Inclined Plane", i can see for how i think about "swinging", but not how i think about "hitting"...the journey continues....

-hcw

 

[Tom Bartlett]

quote:Originally posted by hcw

quote:Originally posted by Tom Bartlett
O.K. but, can you use those three points if there is a shift???
If you want to use the #3 pressure point and the sweet spot of the club, my third would then be the ball.
I used the plane line, even if it is different than target line, because it never changes (hopefully)

i believe so, if you shift, then you move from the (body-part#1, LagPressurePoint@ImpactFix, SweetSpot@ImpactFix) plane to the (body-part#2, LagPressurePoint@ImpactFix, SweetSpot@ImpactFix) plane...i was thinking that the SweetSpot@ImpactFix and the Ball (at least it's impact point) are essentially identical...in fact this is where the plane line and target line intersect if they are not identical

-hcw

The only problem I see with using impact fix PP#3 with a shift is what if impact fix is on elbow plane and you shift to turn shoulder on back swing. Your impact fix PP#3, Impact fix sweet spot and turned shoulder won't form a plane on the plane line.

 

[hcw]

quote:Originally posted by Tom Bartlett
The only problem I see with using impact fix PP#3 with a shift is what if impact fix is on elbow plane and you shift to turn shoulder on back swing. Your impact fix PP#3, Impact fix sweet spot and turned shoulder won't form a plane on the plane line.

hmmmmm...well about using PP#3 (or whatever LagPressurePoint you use) i'll just refer to my above post and 2-F...also from that post and sketch 1-L it would seem that the inclined plane line IS different from the sweetspot plane line and is defined by the bottom of the shaft...now i THINK (from just grabbing a club and trying to visualize) that using elbow or the turned shoulder with PP#3 and the bottom of the shaft will give you two planes, both along the inclined plane line, but with different plane angles...in any case, thanks much as the disscusion has helped me about where/how to move the club!

-hcw