Absolutey, 100 percent true. Far too often the student takes a lesson and fails to practice. I was trying to make two points. First, more instructors need to become better informed. The GTE is a great starting point and will be a perfect place for those who desire to become better, can. In my opinion there has been a desparate need for this type of format and thanks to Brian for getting it started. All that attended are that much further ahead. The second point is a little trickier to explain. The best way would be to ask you to take up a new activity, take a lesson in something you have never done before. Challenge yourself to learn, but more. Make an effort to learn how to become a better informer of information. You may be surprised what the "instructor" takes for granted........To become better golf instructors we need to make sure we have students that leave the lesson tee with better information. Information that will last beyond the time we leave them on there own.
Dark Ages
- Thread starter mandrin
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Absolutey, 100 percent true. Far too often the student takes a lesson and fails to practice. I was trying to make two points. First, more instructors need to become better informed. The GTE is a great starting point and will be a perfect place for those who desire to become better, can. In my opinion there has been a desparate need for this type of format and thanks to Brian for getting it started. All that attended are that much further ahead. The second point is a little trickier to explain. The best way would be to ask you to take up a new activity, take a lesson in something you have never done before. Challenge yourself to learn, but more. Make an effort to learn how to become a better informer of information. You may be surprised what the "instructor" takes for granted........To become better golf instructors we need to make sure we have students that leave the lesson tee with better information. Information that will last beyond the time we leave them on there own.
Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
I have a guy that is really making me sit back and think. Am I getting better....sure. With Brian's tutelage and my hard work, I am a thousand times better teacher than 5 years ago. But I had this guy twice, good athlete, bulky, flat over rotated backswing, back up hips smother fade. In two hours he looks like Steve Elkington.
My thing is....yeah, he definately got good info. We had some laughs, I did a good job. But he did what I told him to do! He was a better student than i was a teacher every day of the week. Ive gone through a similar progression with other people with fair to great results. All things equal the ones who take the time to sort through what is being taught to them will do better.
Im sure I left some golden nuggets out there in my own game because i didnt give them the notice they deserved or my "my way is fine" attitude got in the way.
My thing is....yeah, he definately got good info. We had some laughs, I did a good job. But he did what I told him to do! He was a better student than i was a teacher every day of the week. Ive gone through a similar progression with other people with fair to great results. All things equal the ones who take the time to sort through what is being taught to them will do better.
Im sure I left some golden nuggets out there in my own game because i didnt give them the notice they deserved or my "my way is fine" attitude got in the way.
TROYNYGOLFER
New
Point well taken, and I have posted previously about my interaction with sub-par instructors (pun intended). However, could we also agree that it is incumbent upon those of us who follow this forum as students to spread the word that we as consumers of a service should demand better from the marketplace? All too often we treat pros as patients treat doctors, as if they are gods, and if we are not improving it must be our fault.
If nothing else, this forum has sure opened my eyes and confirmed a lot of doubts I had about golf instruction.
To the pros: what do you do when you get a guy who is resistant to your teaching?
What do you do when you hear "This is uncomfortable," or, "I like my way better," or, "I was told to _____ my _____ while I _____ my _____"?
I know it's ridiculous to even hear this stuff. It has to happen occasionally though. Is teaching just leading the horse to water, or is it making that dumbass horse drink as well?
What do you do when you hear "This is uncomfortable," or, "I like my way better," or, "I was told to _____ my _____ while I _____ my _____"?
I know it's ridiculous to even hear this stuff. It has to happen occasionally though. Is teaching just leading the horse to water, or is it making that dumbass horse drink as well?
What do you call.....
It reminds me of the old joke, "What do you call the person that finished last in their class at medical school?"............Doctor! Scary but true, not all doctors finished at the top of their class. It is even worse for golf professionals. Too many are called Golf Professionals without the proper, or even worse, ANY training as to how to teach. Sure, the PGA, which I am a member of, will train people in many, many facets of the business. From food and beverage, tournament operations, budgets, etc. Where I feel they fall well short is on training the PGA Apprentice on learning the facts about the golf swing. Every PGA Professional can look back at when they gave their first lesson as a "PGA" Pro and almost wince at how bad it really was. There is so little training and proper education in this area. That is why something like Brian is trying to put together is so invaluable. I've been teaching golf for 20+ years and everyday I try to get better information. Too much instruction has been "smoke and mirrors", and good marketing. The golfers that come for a lesson deserve better than that. For the amateur golfer looking for a lesson, do you homework first. Don't just go to an instructor that happens to be a great player, on some "list" or the most expensive, thinking they must be good. Ask around and you will soon find the Instructor you will be happy with.
It reminds me of the old joke, "What do you call the person that finished last in their class at medical school?"............Doctor! Scary but true, not all doctors finished at the top of their class. It is even worse for golf professionals. Too many are called Golf Professionals without the proper, or even worse, ANY training as to how to teach. Sure, the PGA, which I am a member of, will train people in many, many facets of the business. From food and beverage, tournament operations, budgets, etc. Where I feel they fall well short is on training the PGA Apprentice on learning the facts about the golf swing. Every PGA Professional can look back at when they gave their first lesson as a "PGA" Pro and almost wince at how bad it really was. There is so little training and proper education in this area. That is why something like Brian is trying to put together is so invaluable. I've been teaching golf for 20+ years and everyday I try to get better information. Too much instruction has been "smoke and mirrors", and good marketing. The golfers that come for a lesson deserve better than that. For the amateur golfer looking for a lesson, do you homework first. Don't just go to an instructor that happens to be a great player, on some "list" or the most expensive, thinking they must be good. Ask around and you will soon find the Instructor you will be happy with.
Brian Manzella
Administrator
Hall-of-Fame post.
drewyallop
New
Brilliant! I have never left the lesson tee with information, simply prescriptions like "hit it from the inside out" and "hit everything to the right", "spin your hips faster", "make a flatter shoulder turn, your divots are too deep" or bromides like "learning to swing is a process" (translation: you are going to need a lot more lessons from me). Not once was I told why I should hit it from the inside out etcetera.
So then I come here with an elbow plane swing so cramped and under plane that I can't get the ball out of my own way. But on this site there is information, Brian's videos and advice. I learn that if I swing on plane and hit the ball before low point that the club is moving inside out - no need to throw the club head out and to the right. I read that the elbow plane is not always the right plane for everybody. I read that the club path can be slightly outside in and with the right face angle the ball will go straight. I learn that for a proper release the right hand has to be poured on at a certain point in the swing. I learn that gravity can pull the club head open and that there are several techniques for ensuring that this force is counteracted, techniques which by conventional teaching dogma would be called silly and unorthodox.
With this information alone I have improved. And when I hit bad shots I now know why. My swing is not perfect, never will be, but this information has resulted in continual improvement, not the familiar "improvement then regression" pattern that keeps golf students returning again and again to their teaching pro for another prescription.
Will I take another lesson. Yes, but it will be with somebody in the Manzella organisation, not someone whose sole goal is to book the next lesson.
Best,
Drew Yallop
drewitgolf
New
Not everyone.
drewitgolf
New
Don't think of it as uncomfortable (unique, feels great, feels funny, etc.), think of it as "different". If you want "different" results, do something "different". If you want the same results, keep doing what you have been doing. That "different" feeling will become a new habit with practice.
BTW, I have had the pleasure presenting, on two different occasions, to our PGA Section on "Teaching the Instructors" with BBax. He is a wonderful instructor, also an A.I. who really enjoys teaching and knows his "stuff".
Last edited:
Brian Manzella
Administrator
TROYNYGOLFER
New
BBax, let me play devil's advocate here. When you posted ealier about students that reply "that feels uncomfortable, or "I was told to _____ my _____ while I _____ my _____", is that not a golden opportunity for you to engage your student, and attempt to get him/her thinking in a proactive mode?
otto6457
New
Welcome Back Mandarin
I will admit that I very often have no idea what you are talking about. But I don't believe I need to. The way I see it is that if your stuff is right, and based upon verifiable scientific investigation, then it helps teachers like Brian teach me how to hit the ball better which lowers my scores, and gets me into the tournaments I want to play in.
So in effect, when you post, I get better.
thanks for that.
I will admit that I very often have no idea what you are talking about. But I don't believe I need to. The way I see it is that if your stuff is right, and based upon verifiable scientific investigation, then it helps teachers like Brian teach me how to hit the ball better which lowers my scores, and gets me into the tournaments I want to play in.
So in effect, when you post, I get better.
thanks for that.
Honestly? Abe
I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.
-Abraham Lincoln
What did he know?
I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.
-Abraham Lincoln
What did he know?
Givin' the devil his due
Since it is almost Halloween, I will advocate for the devil.....Absolutely! If more "Instructors" would just listen and not just preach how smart they are, they would learn a great deal about the student. I always watch and listen for clues....the best lessons are sometimes ones that I talk less than the student. The words and actions I use are carefully thought out and used only to promote positive information that elicits a clear mental and emotional message. I try to never tell the student to NOT do something. The mind cannot visualize the negative image of anything. "Don't move your head", "Don't come over the top" are all negative "reactionary" messages that hurt the student. Just watch a husband try to teach his wife to play and you will see a great example of reactionary instruction. Brian during the summit was in my opinion just the opposite. He was a Proactive instructor. He focused on the positive, whether it was when he adjusted the club while hiding the clubface from the student, to when he physically manipulated the player to better balanced positions, to dropping the ball while the player was making pitching motions....those are just a few of what I mean by "proactive" proceedures. By telling the student what NOT to do, just mentally reinforces the error.
Since it is almost Halloween, I will advocate for the devil.....Absolutely! If more "Instructors" would just listen and not just preach how smart they are, they would learn a great deal about the student. I always watch and listen for clues....the best lessons are sometimes ones that I talk less than the student. The words and actions I use are carefully thought out and used only to promote positive information that elicits a clear mental and emotional message. I try to never tell the student to NOT do something. The mind cannot visualize the negative image of anything. "Don't move your head", "Don't come over the top" are all negative "reactionary" messages that hurt the student. Just watch a husband try to teach his wife to play and you will see a great example of reactionary instruction. Brian during the summit was in my opinion just the opposite. He was a Proactive instructor. He focused on the positive, whether it was when he adjusted the club while hiding the clubface from the student, to when he physically manipulated the player to better balanced positions, to dropping the ball while the player was making pitching motions....those are just a few of what I mean by "proactive" proceedures. By telling the student what NOT to do, just mentally reinforces the error.
Always looking to improve
I was good the first time too but now I am better according to Mrs. BBax!
I was good the first time too but now I am better according to Mrs. BBax!
drewitgolf
New
While I don't disagree with Mr. Lincoln's statement...
"The general who wins a battle makes many calculations in his temple before the battle is fought."
Sun Tzu, The Art of War
I went in prepared. Spents years studying before I gave my first professional lesson.
thankgod for the gte
I guess thats the difference. Most Pga apprentices/pros dont have alot of background or studying/help from the PGA or other sources before they get on the lesson tee for the first time and only get better by trying to help themselves.
I guess thats the difference. Most Pga apprentices/pros dont have alot of background or studying/help from the PGA or other sources before they get on the lesson tee for the first time and only get better by trying to help themselves.
mandrin
New
I found an interesting post on another golf forum by BPGS1, an experienced golf instructor. Somewhere in the post is used the term medieval and it all fits in quite nicely with this thread. 
It is the first time I see this type of analysis of the TGM school of thought and many will likely agree with it, especially on this form, where we are not looking continuously backwards but rather to an ever changing future, full with things to discover.
"The more I read TGM swing theory, especially on internet golf forums, the more I become convinced that the book is deeply flawed. Mainly as a platform for self-directed learning or even for teaching, similar to the ideas that Two expressed. I can't tell you how much my long experience as a teacher, coaching thousands of golf students, tells me that one of THE most important issues in mastering ballstriking is what we at Balance Point call "Contamination" - or conscious mind interference in the golf swing, mainly through over-analysis and over-thinking. I am halfway through the Homer Kelley bio right now and it is clear to me that Homer himself suffered from a massive case of Contamination. He clearly had a deep unconscious emotional/mental need to analyze the golf swing to death and he did so in his book.*
My take is that Kelley suffered from a mild form of autism called Asperger's Syndrome - an overwhelming obsession with a single topic. He exhibits many of the signs. The end result is a book that resembles very much medieval theologians arguing about how many angels can fit onto the head of a pin. It might be interesting from a purely intellectual standpoint, kind of like golf swing Metaphysics, but is it really helpful to the golfer struggling to get better? Compared to other sources on the open market that could have been used instead of TGM, ie other books?*
The book should have been subtitled "How My Intellect Can View the Golf Swing in Any and Every Conceivable Way". Classic Asperger's. What matters to me as both a player and teacher - how can I best execute this golf shot, right here, right now and how can help Joe Hacker learn best how to master one or more ballstriking skills so that he can better execute. Not how many different ways can I intellectually think about the golf swing.
Ironically, the book actually attracts fellow Asperger types like a magnet. Just check out the TGM forums if you doubt me on this. The promise of absolute control is a seductive one and HK was a master marketer of that message, as the bio shows. The author actually reprints some of the flyers HK used back in the early days to promote his book, and some of the slogans he used remind me of late night Vegimatic commercials - "...it slices. it dices!". HK believed he had found the Holy Grail, the Answer and he never shied away from saying so to the golfing public, the PGA and the golf media. He was dead wrong on that one, as recent research has shown. He missed a lot of key issues, and got many of his concepts wrong. But mainly he encouraged a golfing public already deeply Contaminated by the golf media and traditional instruction to become even more Contaminated.*
There are two types of golf and two types of golfers- the game where the subconscious is left in charge of the shot execution, which is a game of letting go of control and is also based on gradual acquisition of skill over time, and the game of "hit and hope", relying on luck for the occassional good shot, and one where the golfer's ego is constantly holding onto and pursuing control, a game I call Flog - or golf on Bizzaro World. (Flog is golf spelled backwards and also has intended masochistic implications!). Homer Kelley was the High Priest of Flogging, which is why his own game never got better than a 15 handicap. Probably 90% or more of folks who play the game are Floggers. To them I say - there is indeed another way to understand and to play the game.*
Those are two very opposite ways of playing the game. Two different languages really. So if you want to see some really interesting inter-cultural conflict and linguistic confusion, try having a debate between a real golfer and a flogger. It may be entertaining - but I don't know how much it will help the casual reader improve their golf game.
You would be amazed at the almost complete lack of golfing skill that I have witnessed in the TGM fanatics and non-TGM contaminated golfers who think that the Answer lies in discovering some kind of intellectual insight that will unlock the key to better ballstriking. To a man, the students I have worked with who fit that description have poor mental focus or wandering "monkey minds", worse than the average person, for some a kind of Attention Deficit Disorder, and very poor body awareness and very weak mind/body connection. Those three things are FAR more important than ANY purely intellectual swing theory that one may have studied.*
I am only interested in playing, teaching, learning about, and practicing Golf - never Flog. The golf swing is dynamic, reactive to a Target, athletic motion governed by the subconscious mind, and works best when the conscious mind is focused on only One Thing that has proven to not cause ANY interference with the flow of information from the subconscious mind to the muscles."
It is the first time I see this type of analysis of the TGM school of thought and many will likely agree with it, especially on this form, where we are not looking continuously backwards but rather to an ever changing future, full with things to discover. "The more I read TGM swing theory, especially on internet golf forums, the more I become convinced that the book is deeply flawed. Mainly as a platform for self-directed learning or even for teaching, similar to the ideas that Two expressed. I can't tell you how much my long experience as a teacher, coaching thousands of golf students, tells me that one of THE most important issues in mastering ballstriking is what we at Balance Point call "Contamination" - or conscious mind interference in the golf swing, mainly through over-analysis and over-thinking. I am halfway through the Homer Kelley bio right now and it is clear to me that Homer himself suffered from a massive case of Contamination. He clearly had a deep unconscious emotional/mental need to analyze the golf swing to death and he did so in his book.*
My take is that Kelley suffered from a mild form of autism called Asperger's Syndrome - an overwhelming obsession with a single topic. He exhibits many of the signs. The end result is a book that resembles very much medieval theologians arguing about how many angels can fit onto the head of a pin. It might be interesting from a purely intellectual standpoint, kind of like golf swing Metaphysics, but is it really helpful to the golfer struggling to get better? Compared to other sources on the open market that could have been used instead of TGM, ie other books?*
The book should have been subtitled "How My Intellect Can View the Golf Swing in Any and Every Conceivable Way". Classic Asperger's. What matters to me as both a player and teacher - how can I best execute this golf shot, right here, right now and how can help Joe Hacker learn best how to master one or more ballstriking skills so that he can better execute. Not how many different ways can I intellectually think about the golf swing.
Ironically, the book actually attracts fellow Asperger types like a magnet. Just check out the TGM forums if you doubt me on this. The promise of absolute control is a seductive one and HK was a master marketer of that message, as the bio shows. The author actually reprints some of the flyers HK used back in the early days to promote his book, and some of the slogans he used remind me of late night Vegimatic commercials - "...it slices. it dices!". HK believed he had found the Holy Grail, the Answer and he never shied away from saying so to the golfing public, the PGA and the golf media. He was dead wrong on that one, as recent research has shown. He missed a lot of key issues, and got many of his concepts wrong. But mainly he encouraged a golfing public already deeply Contaminated by the golf media and traditional instruction to become even more Contaminated.*
There are two types of golf and two types of golfers- the game where the subconscious is left in charge of the shot execution, which is a game of letting go of control and is also based on gradual acquisition of skill over time, and the game of "hit and hope", relying on luck for the occassional good shot, and one where the golfer's ego is constantly holding onto and pursuing control, a game I call Flog - or golf on Bizzaro World. (Flog is golf spelled backwards and also has intended masochistic implications!). Homer Kelley was the High Priest of Flogging, which is why his own game never got better than a 15 handicap. Probably 90% or more of folks who play the game are Floggers. To them I say - there is indeed another way to understand and to play the game.*
Those are two very opposite ways of playing the game. Two different languages really. So if you want to see some really interesting inter-cultural conflict and linguistic confusion, try having a debate between a real golfer and a flogger. It may be entertaining - but I don't know how much it will help the casual reader improve their golf game.
You would be amazed at the almost complete lack of golfing skill that I have witnessed in the TGM fanatics and non-TGM contaminated golfers who think that the Answer lies in discovering some kind of intellectual insight that will unlock the key to better ballstriking. To a man, the students I have worked with who fit that description have poor mental focus or wandering "monkey minds", worse than the average person, for some a kind of Attention Deficit Disorder, and very poor body awareness and very weak mind/body connection. Those three things are FAR more important than ANY purely intellectual swing theory that one may have studied.*
I am only interested in playing, teaching, learning about, and practicing Golf - never Flog. The golf swing is dynamic, reactive to a Target, athletic motion governed by the subconscious mind, and works best when the conscious mind is focused on only One Thing that has proven to not cause ANY interference with the flow of information from the subconscious mind to the muscles."
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