De la Torre and Knudson

Status
Not open for further replies.
E

EdZ

New
Brian - what are your thoughts on their approach?

I know there are a few (or many) things you would disagree with on a detail level, but I'm talking about mental images and concepts.

IMO - golf is much more like basketball, it should be a 'reaction' to a target. As you know, I'm a huge fan of Knudson, and having recently seen more of De la Torre, I'd have to say I like what I have seen so far. His DVD is quite good.

I have no doubt you know the swing as well as anyone Brian, but I would suggest to folks on the board, that a 'combination' of your approach and detail, AND an understanding of the approach of Knudson and De La Torre, is a VERY powerful combination.

It is my strong view that the more you understand about approaching golf from either side, the more you will see they compliment each other quite well. The more you understand the specific detail in Brian's articles, and in particular, the three imparatives of TGM, the more you will find that they 'happen' when given the right images and concepts (and of course a proper setup and balance).

As with all things golf, perspective is everything. What you describe, what Homer described, and what Knudson, Hogan, and De La Torre describe are all the SAME things, just in different terms, and from a different perspective.

Have you studied Knudson and De La Torre? What do you think about them?

IMO - once you understand the concepts and images, and a few simple details, you can 'do' very little 'during' your swing. You can simply 'send the ball to the target'.

I think one of the reasons that golf instruction is hard for folks to absorb, is obviously the wide range of perspectives of the SAME over all motion. Combining approaches can be a bad thing, and it can be a great thing.

If you like what Brian has to say in his articles, I suggest you take a look at Knudson and De La Torre, their views will enhance Brian's teaching quite well.

I hope you take no offense at this suggestion Brian, I offer it only to help people play better golf, which I know you would agree, is good for all of us.
 
E

EdZ

New
You're not getting it Brian.

In your MIND

You must 'see' what you want, and the body will respond without 'thinking' or 'doing' anything deliberate during the motion but responding to the image in your mind

That's the part that will really enhance what you are teaching IMO.

when you are running/walking what are you 'thinking about' - not 'what' you are doing - but 'where' you are going

focus on 'where' you are going - sending the ball to the target

Now for me, the visual in my mind is a window in the sky, one of the better Toski/Love images - just like shooting a basketball

I focus on 'directing the flow' of my swing/force to the target - you have to 'see', in your mind.

As De La Torre says, feel like you are sending the club to the target - which is a very powerful thought, and the more you 'stop thinking' and 'doing' during your motion, the more you can 'absorb' the target, the better your body will respond, and the ball with fly.

Now I'm not saying this is the 'only' thing you need, key concepts (impact fix, three imparatives) and 'feels' (EdZ drills #1 and #2) and of course 'balance' are needed before you can get to that level. (and yes, your articles, you've got that 'mechanics' part down as well as anyone)

But once you learn to ride a bike, you don't have to think about it, and once you learn to 'swing' a club, you don't have to think about it.

In both cases, you only need to focus on WHERE you are going.
 
Burner

Burner

New
quote:EdZ
As with all things golf, perspective is everything. What you describe, what Homer described, and what Knudson, Hogan, and De La Torre describe are all the SAME things, just in different terms, and from a different perspective.
Click to expand...

quote:EdZ
I think one of the reasons that golf instruction is hard for folks to absorb, is obviously the wide range of perspectives of the SAME over all motion. Combining approaches can be a bad thing, and it can be a great thing.
Click to expand...

During times of universal misunderstanding - 'aint that the truth.
 
mgjordan

mgjordan

New
Ed,
If it were that simple, everyone would be good. They would just think about the target and hit good shots. It doesn't work that way. Also, thinking about the target while swinging isn't a good thing for bad players. From the top of the swing, they will think "swing to the target" and they will come over the top. As described VERY WELL by John Dunigan in his books, WHERE to swing is NOT at the ball or the target. Where you swing is downward toward the plane. Most bad players come over the top. Most have to try to swing 40* or more out to the right just to come close to being on plane.
 
E

EdZ

New
quote:Originally posted by mgjordan

Ed,
If it were that simple, everyone would be good. They would just think about the target and hit good shots. It doesn't work that way. Also, thinking about the target while swinging isn't a good thing for bad players. From the top of the swing, they will think "swing to the target" and they will come over the top. As described VERY WELL by John Dunigan in his books, WHERE to swing is NOT at the ball or the target. Where you swing is downward toward the plane. Most bad players come over the top. Most have to try to swing 40* or more out to the right just to come close to being on plane.
Click to expand...

You are still thinking in the "what to do" side... and I agree, if folks 'try' to do anything during a swing, they are going to have an issue

you have to 'see', not 'try' - and then 'react' not 'do'

It really IS that simple, just like riding a bike - once you get it, you get it, but before you do, it seems very difficult

edit: and as far as dunnigan, yes, he has one perspective, there are others for the same problem - inside back corner being perhaps the best, from the ground up being another, kicking a soccer ball is one of the more powerful images too

In any of those cases, it is the IMAGE that matters, and that the body reacts to
 
B

Brian Manzella

Administrator
Ed....I am ALL FOR a picture in the mind of a golfer and a not a so-called swing 'thought.'

What I am saying is YOUR PICTURE is what?
 
E

EdZ

New
As I said...

"Now for me, the visual in my mind is a window in the sky, one of the better Toski/Love images - just like shooting a basketball"

I 'see' the flight of the ball, going through the 'window', which lets me control trajectory quite well

I 'see' the window, and the flight of the ball I have selected to fit the shot

or at times, I switch to a 'hoop' or 'funnel', VERY useful for shortgame, especially for putts - send the ball through the basket, and let it 'fall' down to the hole

I also love to 'nail it', another great putting image

aside from those, 'seeing' the plane/planeboard during practice, the 'beam of light' that comes out of both ends of the shaft - when you can 'draw a line' on the ground - again, that is a 'practice' image, not a 'playing' image, another, the 'feel' and 'visual' of the club as a 'rock on a string - practice image

the playing image is the flight of the ball - of 'sending the ball to the target' - of - sending the 'swinging force' to the target
 
B

Brian Manzella

Administrator
I, of course, always knew what you meant ed.

It is MY JOB to know.

I ask retorical questions for EFFECT.

My opinion of the window in the sky?

It is something 98.765% of all hackers do (and think).

That's one reason I have a job.
 
M

mclare

New
Ed,

Your approach only works for those that are visually inclined. In addition, don't forgot that we all struggled to learn to walk in the beginning. Images would not have helped until we learned the mechanics of walking.

It would not have taken Knudson so long to turn the images of Hogan into the swing he eventually had, if the right images had been the only "secret". As Hogan said, "the secret's in the dirt" and TGW can provide a framework to mold the dirt!!
 
bts

bts

New
In golf, the golfer faces the ball, which is at a 90-degree angle to the target. Therefore, it's better for the golfer to set up to the target and then forget about it, so that he/she can focus on the execution (ball and the swing), which is "moving the club by the hands from one place through the ball to another".
 
E

EdZ

New
quote:Originally posted by brianman

I, of course, always knew what you meant ed.

It is MY JOB to know.

I ask retorical questions for EFFECT.

My opinion of the window in the sky?

It is something 98.765% of all hackers do (and think).

That's one reason I have a job.
Click to expand...


I could not disagree MORE with you than on this point.

hackers use visuals, and respond to them? - yes- they 'see' the hazards, and guess where the ball goes?

They just don't have the right 'picture' to react to, and they 'try' to do something with the club, instead of just 'trusting the swinging force'

You have studied golf Brian, and I see that you have - you have studied the 'what', and the 'why' very well. Your version of the 'how' is much more complicated than it needs to be. Accurate, but much more complicated.

Like shooting a basketball, like riding a bike.....

RESPOND to the target

You don't like to give me any credit Brian, but if ANYONE should appreciate the elegance of Knudson and De La Torre, I would have thought it would be you.

Use the 'FORCE' Brian (literally, and figuratively), become a jedi master [8D]

If you get over 'reacting' to my posts for a moment, you would see I am trying to HELP you.
 
bts

bts

New
quote:Originally posted by EdZ
...........

Like shooting a basketball, like riding a bike.....

RESPOND to the target
................
Click to expand...
Really?

The fact is that, during a swing, the golfer remains in place and the club in the golfer's hands.
 
E

EdZ

New
quote:Originally posted by bts

quote:Originally posted by EdZ
...........

Like shooting a basketball, like riding a bike.....

RESPOND to the target
................
Click to expand...
Really?

The fact is that, during a swing, the golfer remains in place and the club in the golfer's hands.
Click to expand...

que?

I don't think you're seeing the analogy....
 
E

EaglesNest

New
quote:Originally posted by EdZ

quote:Originally posted by brianman

Where is the target, ed?
Click to expand...

In your mind Brian
Click to expand...

quote:I could not disagree MORE with you than on this point.

hackers use visuals, and respond to them? - yes- they 'see' the hazards, and guess where the ball goes?

They just don't have the right 'picture' to react to, and they 'try' to do something with the club, instead of just 'trusting the swinging force'

You have studied golf Brian, and I see that you have - you have studied the 'what', and the 'why' very well. Your version of the 'how' is much more complicated than it needs to be. Accurate, but much more complicated.

Like shooting a basketball, like riding a bike.....

RESPOND to the target

You don't like to give me any credit Brian, but if ANYONE should appreciate the elegance of Knudson and De La Torre, I would have thought it would be you.

Use the 'FORCE' Brian (literally, and figuratively), become a jedi master

If you get over 'reacting' to my posts for a moment, you would see I am trying to HELP you.
Click to expand...


Next you will be telling us to watch Caddyshack... you know nahnahnahnahnah.....:DLOL.
Come on Edz, taking a few ritalin and using a set of binoculars to zoom in on the target before setup might be more helpful.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top