Definitely getting there but..

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BertramSterling

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..starting to hook shots regularly!

Basically I've been playing at least 6 months throwing my hands at the ball (or plane line) in the downswing. To quote Lindsey Newman on another (old) thread here, I "obviously (had) to stand the shaft up and back it up to get the face on the ball".

Add this to the fact I never really 'rolled' through impact, rather held it off (sometimes worse than others).

Anyway, now I have a hand path inside the ball (dropping more vertical, or however you want to describe it), and I am rolling my left palm more skyward post impact. This has seen the dreaded flip gone and more forward lean. Problem is, I was hitting some decent straight shots before! I have this inbuilt tendency to over rotate into impact now. I guess on the old swing I had to rotate like crazy to square it any, and thats still what my hands want to do..

Does anyone have any suggestions for helping my hands re-educate themselves? Should I almost feel like I don't (conciously) square it? I.e. like I just let it run its course with soft wrists, and not interfere? Or is that too dependent on things like ball position to work consistently?

I have NHA, not watched in a while. Can dig it out and revisit any drills that might be useful..

Thanks guys, lots of great info here and its got me swinging better than ever. One hurdle at a time!
 
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JKGolf

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Sounds like you're working your arms fine but now it's time to educate your pivot a little. Continue what you've been doing with your arms but try syncing up your body to your arms. That should straighten out your path and you should see a better ball flight.
 
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BertramSterling

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That makes sense.. an aggressive pivot would usually result in a slice before, so I guess I've held it back a little. I can see how going after it more again would help bringing it back towards the right...

Thanks JK, I'll give it a go.

Incidentally, do you guys think its possible to overdo the left arm rotation into the ball (therefore overly closing the clubface?). I mean, obviously its possible but is it generally a problem related to a weaker out-of-sync pivot, or overly strong grip maybe? In an ideal swing with an aggressive move at the ball (and strong pivot), can it be overdone?
Maybe a stupid question but I usually see people slicing more the harder they go at it (and then some quirky compensations get built in to prevent going full tilt at it, like holding off the release to try and steer it straighter).
 
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JKGolf

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Typically the harder you turn the harder it is to overdo the left arm rotation. It's really just a sequence issue. The faster you pull down your arms the faster you have to pivot and vice versa slower arms equal slower pivot.
 
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Lindsey Newman

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Tumble earlier and steepen the shaft earlier if your truly inside out and rolling. Be careful to try to beat your hook with rotary pivot.
 
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JKGolf

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Lindsey,

For my own edification what are your concerns with beating a hook with proper sequence? Wouldn't a good pivot steepen the shaft without the need of tumbling the club? I know you're a smart guy so I'm curious to hear what you have to say. Thanks.
 
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Lindsey Newman

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JKGolf said:
Lindsey,

For my own edification what are your concerns with beating a hook with proper sequence? Wouldn't a good pivot steepen the shaft without the need of tumbling the club? I know you're a smart guy so I'm curious to hear what you have to say. Thanks.
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I wrote nothing about not having a proper sequence. Point being that focusing on rotation can or may create a more horizontal hand path which in turn may even cause the club to work more under plane and create more "rolling action". Many hooked shots are produced by massive rotary driven swings. I am all for proper sequence and a "properly implemented" rotation. Without seeing the swing and blindly saying to add more rotary movement to take away a hook seems flipid. The same poor shot, whether hooked or sliced can be caused by many different things. For years instruction said rotate your hips to beat your hook and it's just not that simple.
 
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JKGolf

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I agree that without video it is difficult to give the right recommendation. However, it's a bit ironic that you recommended tumbling earlier. Many fat shots are produced by early tumble without proper pivot. If my recommendation was flipid then join the club, Lindsey. Thanks for the feedback.
 
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Lindsey Newman

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JKGolf said:
I agree that without video it is difficult to give the right recommendation. However, it's a bit ironic that you recommended tumbling earlier. Many fat shots are produced by early tumble without proper pivot. If my recommendation was flipid then join the club, Lindsey. Thanks for the feedback.
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I was not referring to your reply as flipid, but to the idea of pivot rotation fixing a hook. I certainly was not attacking you or your comment.

It's also not ironic. Irony is a fire station that's on fire.

Fat shots are not caused by tumble, ever. Truth be told, fat shots are created more from being under plane than anything and correct steepening of the shaft(tumble) would do nothing but help prevent that.
 
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JKGolf

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We definitely don't see eye to eye on what can cause or influence a fat shot. Thanks for the lesson in irony though.
 
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Lindsey Newman

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JKGolf said:
We definitely don't see eye to eye on what can cause or influence a fat shot. Thanks for the lesson in irony though.
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"Why Wyatt, whatever do you mean?". The whole discussion was about hook shots to begin with. As you know there are many ways to hit it fat, just like there are many ways to hit phat yo. We probably see eye to eye on more than you think, but there must be a huge educational barrier.....c'mon, just kidding.
 
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Kevin Shields

Super Moderator
JKGolf said:
I agree that without video it is difficult to give the right recommendation. However, it's a bit ironic that you recommended tumbling earlier. Many fat shots are produced by early tumble without proper pivot. If my recommendation was flipid then join the club, Lindsey. Thanks for the feedback.
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Ive never seen a fat shot by tumbling too early. And pivot makes the shaft work the opposite way if anything, it will never steepen the shaft.
 
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JKGolf

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I guess it's not clear to me how steepening the shaft without having the body in the proper place can be a good thing. Pivot will never steepen the shaft? That's definitely something that's new to me. So does carry shallow out the club then?
 
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Lindsey Newman

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JK, you keep changing the parameters of the discussion. I or no one would ever suggest not to have an effective pivot. Consistent, great golf shots require everything- setup, ball position, arm swing, pivot, shaft and clubface control.

And yes, carry COULD shallow out the shaft angle by placing horizontal torque at the grip end. There are no absolutes. Carry is generally used to affect path especially in the NHA portion of the Manzella matrix, but you still need to have the shaft aligned (tumbling) correctly all things being equal. Again, there are no absolutes.
 
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JKGolf

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My apologies for throwing in a few different questions. Saying that the pivot would "never" steepen the shaft seemed like an absolute and raised some questions in my mind. Thanks for answering the questions.
 
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Kevin Shields

Super Moderator
JKGolf said:
I guess it's not clear to me how steepening the shaft without having the body in the proper place can be a good thing. Pivot will never steepen the shaft? That's definitely something that's new to me. So does carry shallow out the club then?
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Fats usually are from overly shallowing and under plane moves, even tho the turf contact can feel like a steep crash. Pivot moves the handpath left or horizontal but left to its own devices will drag the shaft flat and make the head fall the opposite way of "tumbling". "Carry" does nothing to the shaft but it can move the hanpath forward which gives you the CHANCE to drop it later to move lowpoint...no guarantees. Still have to commit to getting the clubhead and handle working properly thru impact.
 
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