Mike Thomas (sunmart)
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Than complete foreign dominance in US open? looking like an LPGA event.
Did we expect anything different?
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Mike Thomas (sunmart)
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Yes, it bothers me. I am an advocate for American golf. Do not want to see what happened to American tennis happen to golf.
Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
I just want o see good golf and couldnt care less where they're from. I realize i'm prob in the minority.
Jared Willerson
Super Moderator
I personally do not like our system of junior golf, or HS golf, or college golf. I see too many coaches concerned about how all of their kids bags line up the same way rather than letting them create and make shots.
I will never forget the year my team won the state championship. This major dick coach had all of his kids line up their bags just so and was going up and down the tee line telling them all " Put the wedges up, eight irons, eight irons everybody!" Then a few minutes later it was 7 irons and so on...
My kids laughed, hit balls till they felt good, we played our practice round and waxed that teams ass by 30...
The problem is everybody, and I mean everybody, thought that dude was coach of the year. His kids were miserable, he knew nothing and allowed for no individuality for how the kids played. I see this being more and more common in HS and college golf. This does not prepare kids to be the next Rory McIlroy. It prepares them to all shoot 76 and hold their own in team competitions.
I will never forget the year my team won the state championship. This major dick coach had all of his kids line up their bags just so and was going up and down the tee line telling them all " Put the wedges up, eight irons, eight irons everybody!" Then a few minutes later it was 7 irons and so on...
My kids laughed, hit balls till they felt good, we played our practice round and waxed that teams ass by 30...
The problem is everybody, and I mean everybody, thought that dude was coach of the year. His kids were miserable, he knew nothing and allowed for no individuality for how the kids played. I see this being more and more common in HS and college golf. This does not prepare kids to be the next Rory McIlroy. It prepares them to all shoot 76 and hold their own in team competitions.
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Mike Thomas (sunmart)
New member
Who ya for in the Ryder Cup, President's cup?
Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
2 things. 1,when the best Americans stop going to college. And when the PGA Tour starts reserving the right to give cards to whomever they want so we can develop talent. Its too hard to keep your card early in your career. No on the job training. Bryce Molder, on merit, should have had the opportunity to develop. Instead, he had to go through the bullshit crapshoot that is Q-School and flounder around while his confidence suffered. David Duval?? Shouldve been given a card the second he turned pro. Under the system, Tiger Woods wouldve had to go through Q-School if he didnt play well enough in his first 7 events. Chad Campbell was one of the best players in the world when he was stuck on the Hooters Tour.
What about Ty Tryon, total prodigy. He earned the right to be developed. In this system, you wouldve never heard of Sandy Koufax or Terry Bradshaw or any other athlete that didnt hit it big right out of the gate.
If I decided to go to Q-School again, why would I have the same opportunity that a 4 time All American has? Its nice that I can still try, but if I get hot and make it and Peter Uilhein dumps at 3rd stage, is that better for American golf?
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Mike Thomas (sunmart)
New member
Improve high school golf. Build ranges and practice areas on high school campuses and provide equipment. Provide money to pay clubs for course access.Inside netted ranges in winter. Provide money for coaches.Golf class in high school.A decent high school infrastructure is already in place, just take it to next level.Need PGA involvement.
Richie3Jack
New
IMO, I think some of this stuff is overblown as the Americans have a far 'deeper' roster than the Euros and by a wide margin. But, it is disconcerting to see that the top 25 Euros are better now than the top 25 American players. After that I don't think it's even a contest, in American Golf's favor...but it does make me wonder how the top players in Europe got so much better than the top players in the US.
I wouldn't knock collegiate golf too much. Hey, there are *plenty* of Euros that play collegiate golf. Martin Laird being one of them. Hell, my coach loved to recruit European players because he thought they were automatically better. College Golf coaches really don't teach much in the way of the golf swing or putting instruction. What they usually do is organize practice. That's difficult because they will force you to hit balls for 3 hours straight, even if you want to work on your putting. But as far as swing instruction, they really never give any.
I don't agree with giving a player a Tour card when they get out of college. That's the beauty of golf, it doesn't care what college you went to or where you were All-American. And quite frankly, those All-Americans have *more* opportunity to succeed than the non-All Americans because they have financial backing. In other words, they can fail a few times starting out because they have people and companies backing them financially and can play mini-tours for a living instead of where the others will have to take a job somewhere. If those guys cannot deal with adversity and failure, then they really don't belong on the PGA Tour anyway.
What I really don't like is like Trevino says...too many players have Tour cards. You can get your Tour card thru Q-School and show up to an event only to find that you will need 4 guys to drop out in order to play. Then you're stuck playing all of the smaller events while some go-nowhere 40 year old...ain't gonna sniff the leaderboard journeyman Tour pro will just make cuts and keep his card even though he's really not the better player...he's just got more experience and is playing in bigger $$$$ tournaments. It's really a backwards way to develop young golfers.
But the one thing that gets me is that it seems like all of the top American players are very seasoned veterans. And most of these guys had some success early in their careers....only to almost fall off the earth. Then they get straightened out and because they have good experience and competitiveness, they become one of the top players.
That type of path doesn't seem to happen with other countries' superstars. They seem to start out well when they are young and keep ascending. Lee Westwood's career took a little bit of a dip, but nowhere near as much as Stricker's did. Sergio is going thru a little bit of a depression as well...but nowhere near as much as Kuchar's did.
I think a big part of this is that in some way, the US is doomed when it comes to the top players.
Why?
Because it doesn't matter what type of coach you are or where you are from...if you start becoming very popular you are almost guaranteed to come to the US and set up shop. And then it becomes about 'mass producing' your style of instruction which usually means the quality is not nearly as good.
But, those popular instructors wind up getting big chunks of the junior talent in the US. And those who don't go to these big name instructors when they are junior golfers, usually don't because they cannot afford it. But, if they have success in college and make it to the PGA Tour early on...they can now afford to see these big name instructors and that's who they usually seek out, to their detriment.
It's more or less the way the country is set up. I think this could stop if the golf magazines and TGC were more discerning when it came to the instructors they feature. But, that's a difficult task for anybody and really...those outlets don't care anyway.
3JACK
I wouldn't knock collegiate golf too much. Hey, there are *plenty* of Euros that play collegiate golf. Martin Laird being one of them. Hell, my coach loved to recruit European players because he thought they were automatically better. College Golf coaches really don't teach much in the way of the golf swing or putting instruction. What they usually do is organize practice. That's difficult because they will force you to hit balls for 3 hours straight, even if you want to work on your putting. But as far as swing instruction, they really never give any.
I don't agree with giving a player a Tour card when they get out of college. That's the beauty of golf, it doesn't care what college you went to or where you were All-American. And quite frankly, those All-Americans have *more* opportunity to succeed than the non-All Americans because they have financial backing. In other words, they can fail a few times starting out because they have people and companies backing them financially and can play mini-tours for a living instead of where the others will have to take a job somewhere. If those guys cannot deal with adversity and failure, then they really don't belong on the PGA Tour anyway.
What I really don't like is like Trevino says...too many players have Tour cards. You can get your Tour card thru Q-School and show up to an event only to find that you will need 4 guys to drop out in order to play. Then you're stuck playing all of the smaller events while some go-nowhere 40 year old...ain't gonna sniff the leaderboard journeyman Tour pro will just make cuts and keep his card even though he's really not the better player...he's just got more experience and is playing in bigger $$$$ tournaments. It's really a backwards way to develop young golfers.
But the one thing that gets me is that it seems like all of the top American players are very seasoned veterans. And most of these guys had some success early in their careers....only to almost fall off the earth. Then they get straightened out and because they have good experience and competitiveness, they become one of the top players.
That type of path doesn't seem to happen with other countries' superstars. They seem to start out well when they are young and keep ascending. Lee Westwood's career took a little bit of a dip, but nowhere near as much as Stricker's did. Sergio is going thru a little bit of a depression as well...but nowhere near as much as Kuchar's did.
I think a big part of this is that in some way, the US is doomed when it comes to the top players.
Why?
Because it doesn't matter what type of coach you are or where you are from...if you start becoming very popular you are almost guaranteed to come to the US and set up shop. And then it becomes about 'mass producing' your style of instruction which usually means the quality is not nearly as good.
But, those popular instructors wind up getting big chunks of the junior talent in the US. And those who don't go to these big name instructors when they are junior golfers, usually don't because they cannot afford it. But, if they have success in college and make it to the PGA Tour early on...they can now afford to see these big name instructors and that's who they usually seek out, to their detriment.
It's more or less the way the country is set up. I think this could stop if the golf magazines and TGC were more discerning when it came to the instructors they feature. But, that's a difficult task for anybody and really...those outlets don't care anyway.
3JACK
Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
Walker Cup/2 year Tour Card
NCAA Champ/2 year Tour exemption
Nationwide Money winner/2 year exemption
Egolf Money winner/straight to final satge
US Amateur winner/Next year Tour card
Richie, you are so far off about college coaches not giving instruction. They suck and so does college golf. Match play for the NCAA? Its a joke.
NCAA Champ/2 year Tour exemption
Nationwide Money winner/2 year exemption
Egolf Money winner/straight to final satge
US Amateur winner/Next year Tour card
Richie, you are so far off about college coaches not giving instruction. They suck and so does college golf. Match play for the NCAA? Its a joke.
otto6457
New
Kevin hit the nail on the head about college golf. The college coaches I know are nice guys....but couldn't fix a 30 handicap let alone a top college player. All the college players I know have their own swing coaches and wouldn't dream of asking their college golf coach for swing advice. College coaches are "recruiters". The successful ones are the best recruiters. They do have a say in what clothes the players wear and schedule their fitness training. After that....not so much
College golf does very little to prepare players for the Tour.
College golf does very little to prepare players for the Tour.
Richie3Jack
New
Wait, you're off on this according to Kevin.
And these All Americans and Walker Cup guys get sponsor exemptions.
I'm just used to the old way of golf....earn your way there.
3JACK
Tr-State Open winner/ Lifetime exemption
BrendanC
New
Early exposure followed by bombing is a factor everywhere, not just USA. It is the commercial/media factors that mean these 'failures' appear more prominently.
Fact is, the world is playing more golf than ever. It may help RotW that they play in tougher conditions (weather + courses).
But McIkroy had a big rep for years as a teenager and if he had lost his way.....he's another Tryon.
I don't really think the US has a 'deeper' roster, and this will become apparent over time as the rankings changes (nb Tiger not being on US tour) continue taking effect.
McIlroy is a freak talent with great basics.
Nice that I could get a lesson off his teacher for 50 or 60 quid.
Fact is, the world is playing more golf than ever. It may help RotW that they play in tougher conditions (weather + courses).
But McIkroy had a big rep for years as a teenager and if he had lost his way.....he's another Tryon.
I don't really think the US has a 'deeper' roster, and this will become apparent over time as the rankings changes (nb Tiger not being on US tour) continue taking effect.
McIlroy is a freak talent with great basics.
Nice that I could get a lesson off his teacher for 50 or 60 quid.
otto6457
New
Well, the way I see it. The guys that qualify for the Walker Cup are little different than 95% of all the college golfers. There is no doubt that the Walker Cup players are the elite level college players. Plus, the NCAA individual champion is obviously extremely talented. But I also bet that not one of the Walker Cup players, or the NCAA individual champion have their college coach as their swing coach.
The players just don't play enough golf in college when compared to guys grinding on the mini-tours or on the Nationwide Tour. (of course, if you think about it, their education should be the reason they are going to college) It's usually two tournaments a semester with conference championships thrown in if your school qualifies. Then the top rated schools go to the NCAA Tournament. Not really very much golf. And a lot of college programs choose their tournaments not based upon the quality of the competition, but the location of the tournament. Lot's of trips to Hawaii, the Caribbean, or Florida and Arizona. They use the tournament locals they are going to as a recruiting tool. Heck....what high school kid doesn't want to go to Hawaii in January and play golf?
Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
They,ve already earned their way there through their play. Instead Russell Henley can have the flu or back pain during the Last stage of Q-School and have to wait another year. Yeah, thats a pretty good system, you're right.
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