Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
Funny
Did we expect anything different?
- Thread starter Mike Thomas (sunmart)
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Funny
I think there are issues with kids having access to play and the cost, but I'm going to differ with most of you guys and say I don't think our high school or college system is the issue. We have plenty of very good 18-22 year olds. (Just look at the 2011 college kids in the Open this week. Henley, Cantlay, Cauley. All in top 15 thru 36 holes. ) I think the problem is what happens after they turn pro. Many of these guys stop improving or even regress. I think the reasons are many, and different for each player, here are a few I can think of:
1. Too many distractions. from age 14-21 it was all golf. Now there is money, agents, corporate outings, clothing and equipment contracts, cars and houses to buy, commercials and music videos to make, women to chase.
2. Equipment, swing, and coaching changes.
3. Motivation. The incentives to win aren't great enough. In the 70's and 80's you had to win and be in the top 10 to become wealthy. Hunter Mahan is in his 9th season. He is treated like a superstar by the golf media. He has won 3 times. He probably makes 5-7 million a year. Is he feeling a sense of urgency to take it to the next level? Rickie Fowler is making a ton of money right now. 0 wins. I think he's not as good a player now as when he left school.
Every 10 years or so a player comes along that is good enough at 20 to be a star without improving. Tiger, Mickelson, Garcia, McIllroy, Clampett. Tiger was the best player in the world the 1st day he teed it up as a pro. He didn't need to improve to be great but he did, motivated by history. Mickelson was a winner as an amateur. Immense talent for scoring. If he could hit it in the fairway he's have 10 majors. Garcia and Clampett regressed. If they just maintained the level of play they had at 20, they would both be major champions. The other 99.9 % of players need to improve to become top 10-20 players in the world. Some do it, many don't, and I'm sure there are many other reasons that I haven't mentioned.
1. Too many distractions. from age 14-21 it was all golf. Now there is money, agents, corporate outings, clothing and equipment contracts, cars and houses to buy, commercials and music videos to make, women to chase.
2. Equipment, swing, and coaching changes.
3. Motivation. The incentives to win aren't great enough. In the 70's and 80's you had to win and be in the top 10 to become wealthy. Hunter Mahan is in his 9th season. He is treated like a superstar by the golf media. He has won 3 times. He probably makes 5-7 million a year. Is he feeling a sense of urgency to take it to the next level? Rickie Fowler is making a ton of money right now. 0 wins. I think he's not as good a player now as when he left school.
Every 10 years or so a player comes along that is good enough at 20 to be a star without improving. Tiger, Mickelson, Garcia, McIllroy, Clampett. Tiger was the best player in the world the 1st day he teed it up as a pro. He didn't need to improve to be great but he did, motivated by history. Mickelson was a winner as an amateur. Immense talent for scoring. If he could hit it in the fairway he's have 10 majors. Garcia and Clampett regressed. If they just maintained the level of play they had at 20, they would both be major champions. The other 99.9 % of players need to improve to become top 10-20 players in the world. Some do it, many don't, and I'm sure there are many other reasons that I haven't mentioned.
Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
I really agree with #3. We treat average players as if they are superstars. No doubt.
I was also thinking, since my great triumph, maybe they should give me the 36 hole lead at the next major and exempt me from playing the first 2 rounds. Ive earned it, haven't I?
I was also thinking, since my great triumph, maybe they should give me the 36 hole lead at the next major and exempt me from playing the first 2 rounds. Ive earned it, haven't I?
curtisj76
New
ms1170;196792 3. Motivation. The incentives to win aren't great enough. In the 70's and 80's you had to win and be in the top 10 to become wealthy. Hunter Mahan is in his 9th season. He is treated like a superstar by the golf media. He has won 3 times. He probably makes 5-7 million a year. Is he feeling a sense of urgency to take it to the next level? Rickie Fowler is making a ton of money right now. 0 wins. I think he's not as good a player now as when he left school. [/QUOTE said:
Mike Thomas (sunmart)
New member
9 of top 11 are foreigners. Never thought I would see that in US Open.
The players just don't play enough golf in college when compared to guys grinding on the mini-tours or on the Nationwide Tour. (of course, if you think about it, their education should be the reason they are going to college) It's usually two tournaments a semester with conference championships thrown in if your school qualifies.
Not sure what you base this on. I played at least 40 regular season college tournaments over four years, and Rolex College stuff over the summers in addition to am events. But I agree that more tournament experience is available professionally
Then the top rated schools go to the NCAA Tournament. Not really very much golf. And a lot of college programs choose their tournaments not based upon the quality of the competition, but the location of the tournament.
[/B]The balmy locales would draw the best teams, so this is nonsense.
My college coach loved to recruit foreigners. I happen to be one! His view on the matter was that foreigners were "hungrier" and generally appreciated the preposterous idea that someone would pay for our schooling if we went to Hawaii to play golf for them (more than their entitlement thinking American counterparts)!! Ask yourself this question: Who among the young gun Americans was as hungry as Jason Day during the 4th round? Overall, I think the US of A is doing OK against the rest of the world.
I have advised very good players (not particularly interested in pursuing an education in the States...which for athletes can be marginal at best) to get their golf experience on mini tours and such. There is no mistaking college golf for professional golf...even on a "beans out of a can" mini-tour.[/B][/B][/B]
What I have noticed (and may be a factor) is that golf is an elitist game in the States. AJGA is RIDICULOUSLY overpriced. As for high school golf...it is practically non-existent overseas. Countries like South African, Australia, Sweden and the UK actually have very good junior golf programs. Another thing I have noticed is that in the States there is too much corporate dealings is golf. Golf professionals are not always free to show support for junior golfers. My game was developed through a stout junior program as well as competing for my golf club in league matches. Anything like that going on in the States (given the immensity of the country you never know.)
For years the US has provided a nice big benchmark. The rest of the world has responded to that. Can't wait to see South Korean phenom weaned on Trackman! For me golf has ALWAYS been an international sport.
Not sure what you base this on. I played at least 40 regular season college tournaments over four years, and Rolex College stuff over the summers in addition to am events. But I agree that more tournament experience is available professionally
Then the top rated schools go to the NCAA Tournament. Not really very much golf. And a lot of college programs choose their tournaments not based upon the quality of the competition, but the location of the tournament.
[/B]The balmy locales would draw the best teams, so this is nonsense.
My college coach loved to recruit foreigners. I happen to be one! His view on the matter was that foreigners were "hungrier" and generally appreciated the preposterous idea that someone would pay for our schooling if we went to Hawaii to play golf for them (more than their entitlement thinking American counterparts)!! Ask yourself this question: Who among the young gun Americans was as hungry as Jason Day during the 4th round? Overall, I think the US of A is doing OK against the rest of the world.
I have advised very good players (not particularly interested in pursuing an education in the States...which for athletes can be marginal at best) to get their golf experience on mini tours and such. There is no mistaking college golf for professional golf...even on a "beans out of a can" mini-tour.[/B][/B][/B]
What I have noticed (and may be a factor) is that golf is an elitist game in the States. AJGA is RIDICULOUSLY overpriced. As for high school golf...it is practically non-existent overseas. Countries like South African, Australia, Sweden and the UK actually have very good junior golf programs. Another thing I have noticed is that in the States there is too much corporate dealings is golf. Golf professionals are not always free to show support for junior golfers. My game was developed through a stout junior program as well as competing for my golf club in league matches. Anything like that going on in the States (given the immensity of the country you never know.)
For years the US has provided a nice big benchmark. The rest of the world has responded to that. Can't wait to see South Korean phenom weaned on Trackman! For me golf has ALWAYS been an international sport.
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otto6457
New
Hey Scott
My college golf was played many years ago so I thought I had better check and see how many tournaments my alma mater is playing this Spring to make sure I wasn't making stuff up.
This is a Big 12 school so I'm not familiar with what other conferences might do:
SPRING 2011
DATES TOURNAMENT LOCATION
Feb. 2-4 Hawaii-Hilo Intercollegiate Kohala Coast, Hawaii
Feb. 14-15 UTSA Invitational San Antonio, Texas
March 11-13 Southern Highlands Collegiate Las Vegas, Nev.
March 20-22 Callaway Golf Match Play Atlanta, Ga.
April 4-5 Morris Williams Intercollegiate Austin, Texas
April 16-17 Aggie Invitational College Station, Texas
April 25-27 Big 12 Championships
They did make it to the NCAA's this year so add one more tourney
In Fall 2010 they only played 4 tournaments and one of them is the Isleworth Invitational in Florida that we host, which seems odd since we are in Texas..not Florida.
Two players on the Men's Team qualified for the U.S. Am., but I'm not sure how much competitive golf the other guys play during the summer
It's funny you mentioned foreign players. 4 out of 13 are foreign players this year. So, almost one third of the current team.
My college golf was played many years ago so I thought I had better check and see how many tournaments my alma mater is playing this Spring to make sure I wasn't making stuff up.
This is a Big 12 school so I'm not familiar with what other conferences might do:
SPRING 2011
DATES TOURNAMENT LOCATION
Feb. 2-4 Hawaii-Hilo Intercollegiate Kohala Coast, Hawaii
Feb. 14-15 UTSA Invitational San Antonio, Texas
March 11-13 Southern Highlands Collegiate Las Vegas, Nev.
March 20-22 Callaway Golf Match Play Atlanta, Ga.
April 4-5 Morris Williams Intercollegiate Austin, Texas
April 16-17 Aggie Invitational College Station, Texas
April 25-27 Big 12 Championships
They did make it to the NCAA's this year so add one more tourney
In Fall 2010 they only played 4 tournaments and one of them is the Isleworth Invitational in Florida that we host, which seems odd since we are in Texas..not Florida.
Two players on the Men's Team qualified for the U.S. Am., but I'm not sure how much competitive golf the other guys play during the summer
It's funny you mentioned foreign players. 4 out of 13 are foreign players this year. So, almost one third of the current team.
johnnymarlboro
New
I think you just agreed with the spammer.
Shot Limit
New
Actually, he agreed with Kevin.
They could at least copy and paste from a different thread. Tighten the F*ck up spammers!
What you say must apply to numerous schools. Cow pokes never play fewer than 10 regular season tournaments. Aggies manage 11. Obviously, they look forward to post-season play every year. At the end of the day I agree that full-tilt amateur golf, or any level of professional golf will offer more opportunities than college golf, so your point is valid.
A factor that may balance the point is that most college tournaments are 54 hole events, so they are out of the classroom for 30 days, excluding post-season stuff. The academics is what you make of it but for the most part there is a "path of way less resistance" cut out for athletes and golfers!
If you are a baller, hit the big time amateur circuit. If you cannot afford it...tee it up for real with the men...you may be able to cover your costs!
A factor that may balance the point is that most college tournaments are 54 hole events, so they are out of the classroom for 30 days, excluding post-season stuff. The academics is what you make of it but for the most part there is a "path of way less resistance" cut out for athletes and golfers!
If you are a baller, hit the big time amateur circuit. If you cannot afford it...tee it up for real with the men...you may be able to cover your costs!
How does Pat Goss, Luke Donald's college coach, wind up as his swing coach today?
Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
Obviously there are exceptions. Same goes for Puggy helping Duval. It was an overly general statement but in my opinion true never the less.
Virtuoso
New
I've read most of this thread. I'd prefer to see Americans playing better but I don't lament it like some. Nor do I think it's up to the general American golfing society as a whole to create massive implementations to the system to achieve that goal. It's basically up to the individual American golfers to work hard, work smart and play better. If they don't, too bad.
And in terms of barriers to entry of professional golf, there are essentially none. Golf is very special that way. You don't need "a big break." What you need are 4 things: skill, nuts, reasonable health, and a job at a cart barn so you can practice, play and earn mini-tour entry fees. If you are good enough, you will make it to the highest level. If you are not good enough, you won't.
And in terms of barriers to entry of professional golf, there are essentially none. Golf is very special that way. You don't need "a big break." What you need are 4 things: skill, nuts, reasonable health, and a job at a cart barn so you can practice, play and earn mini-tour entry fees. If you are good enough, you will make it to the highest level. If you are not good enough, you won't.
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