Draw Goes Farther then A Fade?

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Blitzpackage569

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I apologize if I am bringing up an old subject, but when perusing the website I could not seem to find the answer. Growing up every teacher that I learned from always preached that a draw goes FARTHER then a fade.

My question is of course is this in fact true and if so what is the reasoning/science behind it?

Along with that theoretically is a draw the shot that would maximize distance, or are things like a "knuckle fade" equatable?

I look forward to your responses,

Ben
 
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aaron_lohan

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A draw will go further, since to hit a draw the clubface has to be closed relative to the swing path, closing the face will deloft the club, opening the face adds loft.

The second part of your question is more interesting, if you swing excessively shallow and flip it in order to hit a draw, you may gain distance if you were to fade the ball by learning to lag the club and swing further left.
 
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savydan

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aaron_lohan said:
A draw will go further, since to hit a draw the clubface has to be closed relative to the swing path, closing the face will deloft the club, opening the face adds loft.

The second part of your question is more interesting, if you swing excessively shallow and flip it in order to hit a draw, you may gain distance if you were to fade the ball by learning to lag the club and swing further left.
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Will delofting the club always close the face?
 
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birly-shirly

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I kind-of agree and kind-of don't.

Off the tee - with modern driver fitting - there's no reason for a fade to travel less far than a draw. You just have to optimise launch conditions based on your preferred flight. However, a driver that's optimised for a draw will still be pretty playable on a fade, since you're adding loft. I'm not sure that a driver optimised for a fade will be quite so serviceable when hitting a draw.

With irons, who really cares if draws go further? You just need to hit more club.
 
mjstrong

mjstrong

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A draw and fade with equal ball speeds, launch angles, and spin rates will go equal distances. Normally, a draw will have lower backspin, and thus usually goes further. I think Brian's been able to hit an "upswing fade" that basically looks like a lefty's draw.
 
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savydan

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mjstrong said:
A draw and fade with equal ball speeds, launch angles, and spin rates will go equal distances. Normally, a draw will have lower backspin, and thus usually goes further. I think Brian's been able to hit an "upswing fade" that basically looks like a lefty's draw.
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Lower than what?

Are we just switching the plus and minus signs of the HSP and Club Face, or are we playing around with the vertical componets as well?
 
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Mike O

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Blitzpackage569 said:
I apologize if I am bringing up an old subject, but when perusing the website I could not seem to find the answer. Growing up every teacher that I learned from always preached that a draw goes FARTHER then a fade.

My question is of course is this in fact true and if so what is the reasoning/science behind it?

Along with that theoretically is a draw the shot that would maximize distance, or are things like a "knuckle fade" equatable?

I look forward to your responses,

Ben
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Ben,
While some of these posts answered the question - all seemed to leave the door open for doubt, confusion, etc.
1) If a draw and a fade have the same tilted spinning axis, and every detail is the same - one is just considered a fade and one a draw - then they'll fly the same distance, roll the same - no mystical advantage to either one. Another way to look at that - if the right hander hits a draw and then the left hander hits a fade - the shots are identical- then same roll, same everything.
2) Now, let's take you - and your 7 iron - you hit two shots - one you draw and one you fade- you're hitting on a dry fairway - the draw will go further - one reason is that it will be a lower shot and run further - plus it's less of a glancing blow i.e. more loft with the open faced fade versus less loft with the draw. That's the practical reality - and where that historical advice comes from.

Notice that I've answered your question - "Does a draw go further than a fade?" No - in the number one scenario and YES in the number two scenario. That "old Pro" was thinking from their practical experience i.e. my number two example above.
 
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savydan

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Mike O said:
Ben,
While some of these posts answered the question - all seemed to leave the door open for doubt, confusion, etc.
1) If a draw and a fade have the same tilted spinning axis, and every detail is the same - one is just considered a fade and one a draw - then they'll fly the same distance, roll the same - no mystical advantage to either one. Another way to look at that - if the right hander hits a draw and then the left hander hits a fade - the shots are identical- then same roll, same everything.
2) Now, let's take you - and your 7 iron - you hit two shots - one you draw and one you fade- you're hitting on a dry fairway - the draw will go further - one reason is that it will be a lower shot and run further - plus it's less of a glancing blow i.e. more loft with the open faced fade versus less loft with the draw. That's the practical reality - and where that historical advice comes from.

Notice that I've answered your question - "Does a draw go further than a fade?" No - in the number one scenario and YES in the number two scenario. That "old Pro" was thinking from their practical experience i.e. my number two example above.
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Why?

Can you look at a Trackman data sheet and tell if it's a draw or fade without knowing which side of the ball the golfer was standing on?
 
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Blitzpackage569

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Mike O, as well as mgranato and all others who responded thank you for offering up your opinions on the issue.

From the sound of it theoretically they go the same distance, but in actual practice a draw will fly farther due to the obvious variables I am sure we have heard before.

If I am wrong by all means correct me and if there is any more insight on the issue I would love to hear it.
 
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Deadly_Scope

New
mgranato said:
A draw lands with topspin and therefore goes farther.

Your welcome,
80's teaching pro
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Less backspin, yes. Topspin, no.

The clubface is more closed with relation to the target line and is delofted during a draw. The less the loft, the higher the impact point. The higher the impact point, the less rotation induced. Since the impact point is still below the equator, there is still is backspin.

Everyone knows that a wedge creates more backspin than a driver. And let's just add that a driver still has backspin.
 
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Brian Manzella

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Mike O is correct....

Identical Impacts just flipped over...

Driver 10° outside-in, 2° closed face, 5° downward strike, 9° dynamic loft, centered hit.

Driver 10° inside-out, 2° open face, 5° downward strike, 9° dynamic loft, centered hit.

It took several swings at it, but I pulled this off at the first GTE.

Identical mirror images.:eek:
 
mgranato

mgranato

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Deadly_Scope said:
Less backspin, yes. Topspin, no.

The clubface is more closed with relation to the target line and is delofted during a draw. The less the loft, the higher the impact point. The higher the impact point, the less rotation induced. Since the impact point is still below the equator, there is still is backspin.

Everyone knows that a wedge creates more backspin than a driver. And let's just add that a driver still has backspin.
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You bet. The "topspin" comment was a needle at all the 80's hold-over "science" that believed (sorry, couldn't resist) draws/hooks had topspin. Hence, the "80's teaching pro" sig.
 
mjstrong

mjstrong

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savydan said:
Lower than what?

Are we just switching the plus and minus signs of the HSP and Club Face, or are we playing around with the vertical componets as well?
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Normally, a fade experiences higher backspin rates than a draw. I would assume that's because of a resulting steeper AoA, combined with a more open (to the path) and added loft club face, which will result in higher spin.
 
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savydan

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mjstrong said:
Normally, a fade experiences higher backspin rates than a draw. I would assume that's because of a resulting steeper AoA, combined with a more open (to the path) and added loft club face, which will result in higher spin.
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Yes, if that's the case. And I don't doubt over many hits there are tendencies of the certain variables to move together. But I was getting at isolating everything including all the vertical variables, AoA, DL. Of course contact, speed, wind, roll, etc. A tell-tail sign would be two hits producing identical RPMs - any discrepancies should show up there. Agree it's more of theoretical exercise than producable.
 
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savydan

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DCgolf said:
No. Closing the club will always de-loft it but you can de-loft it square. Keep leading edge right angles to target line and simply move handle forward.
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You're saying that if the Face Angle goes from 0* to -2*, the Dynamic Loft MUST BE a certain number? What must that certain number be?
 
duckjr78

duckjr78

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I would imagine that with the technology now to change face angles/lofts and measure face angles/lofts and change the face angles/lofts to optimize launch on drivers, a fade and draw can and do go the same distance. They really always could, we just didn't have the technology to do it.

The real issue I see is that we are judging "farther" based on the loft of the club. Why? If it's not optimal (or at least trying to be), who cares what the number on the bottom is. If I can hit a 9° driver with a draw 5 yards farther than with a fade, what difference does it make if the driver isn't optimized to either swing. That's like saying my Nissan goes faster on 35" mud tires than it does on 10 speed bike tires.

And for the record, my fades go just as far because my impact alignments are much better.
 
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