Draws, Fades, Power, and Football.

[Brian Manzella]

I have played football since I could walk. My Dad—who loved football—had to drop out of High School to help support his family, never got to play competitive football.

My brother David, was a complete High School Star, 36 point headlines in the Times-Picyune, and played 4 years of Division 1 ball in college.

It was my Dad's goal to make get me to either the NFL or to the PGA Tour.

I was taught to catch a ball from him drop-kicking it to me. No underhanded tosses ever.

My brother was a QB, and worked on my throwing motion from basically when I was baby. He also taught me how to kick.

I played some QB along the way, but basically I was a receiver/punt returner and a free safety.

But I could throw a ball, and still can, and I could and can kick.

Somehow my brother, who could throw the dig-shat out of a ball, myself, and everybody from Sammy Baugh to Joe Montana, and from Johhny Unitas to Drew Brees, made a WEIGHT-SHIFT when throwing, and basically didn't have flat plane like Vince Young either.

I probably would have kicked in college except for some funny things that happened along the way.

From the 7 & 8 "A" team at Rebel park, to the County All-Star team for 13 & 14's, I played with a guy named Sydney Bothman. A great pal, he could kick a football 20 yards further than anyone he played with.

He made a 67 (that's sixty-seven) yard field goal, with me holding, off of grass, from the left hash-mark, when he was about 17 years old. He didn't kick on the football team because he was major league prospect pitcher, and my AAAAA high school team had an ALL-South kicker on it named Vince Manalla, who later kicked and punted for Tulane. Vince made a 53-yarder to win a high school game.

Look it up.

Oh, BTW, it should be noted that Vince and Sydney both kicked straight-on.

I backed both of them up.

My range was 45 yards for a field goal when I was 16 and I was about the 5th best kicker in my school.

And here I type....

When I was 8, there was this cat who played for the Saints who kicked the longest field goal in history off of the ground, and he did it a sea level.

Tom Dempsey, 63 yarder vs. the Lions.

Watch the NFL network sometimes.

Oh, BTW, it should be noted that Tom Dempsey, kicked straight-on.

Mark Mosely attempted an 81 yard "Free Kick" vs the Houson Oilers in 1979.

He kicked straight-on as well.

So what?

Don't soccer-style kickers have a "mechanical advantage"?

I'd have to ask an expert in physics, and I think I will, but trust me, a big part of it has to do with the EASIER CONTACT from the bigger surface area the soccer-style kicker has.

Basically, they flub less kicks because of it.

Punters still punt straight on.

Steve Hustelman was soccer-style kicker for the Chalmette Owls before Manalla ran him off, and Vince couldn't out distance kick Sydney.

But I digress...

So to be accurate, soccer-style kickers hook the ball, don't they.

Most do.

Who was the most accurate kicker in Football history with power?

Morten Andersen.

He he a dead straight ball, maybe a little cut.

Who was the best ball-striker in PGA Tour History?

Most folks will agree it is Ben Hogan.

He hit a baby fade or a straight ball.

Who was the best player in Golf history?

Most will say Jack Nicklaus.

He hit a baby fade or a straight ball.

Who did Hogan AND Nicklaus both think hit it the best besides them on Tour?

Lee Trevino.

Fader.

Who was the Longest PGA Tour player vs. the field who was still reasonably accurate?

Jack Nicklaus.

Upright Swing.

Who had the best run ever in golf?

Tiger Slam.

Upright swing, non-centered pivot.

Who was the most accurate iron players in golf during the time i have attended PGA Tour events?

Johnny Miller, straight ball hitter. And David Wayne Toms, hold shot to straight ball hitter.

Both had upright swings.

Who is the longest hitter in Golf history?

Jamie Sadlowski.

Upright, non-centered pivot.


Ok, I feel better now.

 

[chino]

right on brother...........

 

[rprevost]

I was Gulfport, MS, listening to the game on the car radio when Dempsey kicked that field goal. It was a magical moment!

 

[cmartingolf]

That was a very "CLEAR" rant

 

[Brian Manzella]

Dr. Zick and Golf Instruction History

Myself, Mike Finney, and Tom Bartlett spent two+ hours on the phone tonight with Dr. Zick.

That "show prep" conversation was PRICELESS and confirmed much of my own research as well as introducing so many good things that I might not be able to sleep tonight.

He has some BRILLIANT STUFF, real science, and with the checks and balances of Wood and Neal, this is the instruction education event of the last 600 years.

Really.

Why post the above in this thread?

He explained to us why the baseball swing works for golf, and why "Angular Momentum" is not the be all and end of of clubhead speed generation (among dozens of other concepts).

So, most of what I said in the thread starter was confirmed.

Don't worry, It will all be gone over at the MANZIPOSIUM!!!!!!

Oh boy!!!!

 

[bax1865]

Ole Mr. Square Foot

And Depmsey didn't even have a good kicking foot! Some claimed it was filled with lead....more mass I guess. Plus the kick was with no time left.....the Oilers have never been the same since!

 

[birdie_man]

Finally got through the PainPal gauntlet...

Flight booked and Symposium fee paid...!

Will call to book hotel tomorry.

Looking forward to The Manziposium.

 

[dannyc]

Finally got through the PainPal gauntlet...

Flight booked and Symposium fee paid...!

Will call to book hotel tomorry.

Looking forward to The Manziposium.

Woohoo!!!

 

[Dariusz J.]

Who was the best ball-striker in PGA Tour History?

Most folks will agree it is Ben Hogan.

He hit a baby fade or a straight ball.

Who was the best player in Golf history?

Most will say Jack Nicklaus.

He hit a baby fade or a straight ball.

Who did Hogan AND Nicklaus both think hit it the best besides them on Tour?

Lee Trevino.

Fader.

Who was the Longest PGA Tour player vs. the field who was still reasonably accurate?

Jack Nicklaus.

Upright Swing.

Who had the best run ever in golf?

Tiger Slam.

Upright swing, non-centered pivot.

Who was the most accurate iron players in golf during the time i have attended PGA Tour events?

Johnny Miller, straight ball hitter. And David Wayne Toms, hold shot to straight ball hitter.

Both had upright swings.

Who is the longest hitter in Golf history?

Jamie Sadlowski.

Upright, non-centered pivot.


Ok, I feel better now.

I am sorry to point it out and to add bitter taste to a really good list a bit - but you forgot to add:

who were the most consistent and best ballstrikers ? Hogan, Moe, Trevino, Knudsen, Wright...not only faders but all of them low plane golfers without crappy upright backswings.

Forgive me my frankness, but you want to be looked as the most objective of all great teachers (and we all need such !) - therefore, you cannot avoid truth that does not suit your beliefs.

Cheers

 

[Damon Lucas]

Dariusz,
Let's turn this around briefly before you impose yourself on Brian, and by what Dr Zick is saying, Dr Z's ideas.
If you are the objective scientist you claim to be, you might have researched long and hard as to why upright backswings do work. What is it that has empirically allowed them to function just as well?
Is it versatility through impact?
Clubface control?
Feel?
Something else?

We all know about your love for Hogan. We get it. I have a strong affection for everything Hogan too.

But you're selling yourself as a scientist, not as another guy with an opinion. Where is the objectivity, balance, and why have upright backswings worked for a ton of great golfers?

 

[Dariusz J.]

Dariusz,
Let's turn this around briefly before you impose yourself on Brian, and by what Dr Zick is saying, Dr Z's ideas.
If you are the objective scientist you claim to be, you might have researched long and hard as to why upright backswings do work. What is it that has empirically allowed them to function just as well?
Is it versatility through impact?
Clubface control?
Feel?
Something else?

We all know about your love for Hogan. We get it. I have a strong affection for everything Hogan too.

But you're selling yourself as a scientist, not as another guy with an opinion. Where is the objectivity, balance, and why have upright backswings worked for a ton of great golfers?

Damon,

I am not totally against upright swings, they have their biokinetic merits - I am more against hatrid to low plane swings.

Now, answering your question - if I am to advice a golfer who lacks distance above all other faults - I would advice a more upright swing and a more armsy swing. No doubt. However, in 99% of cases I know what amateur hackers need is consistency and repeatability. Neither upright planes nor motions with not well synchronized with main body armsy motion are good for it.
Why some of the best ballstrikers could have upright planes ? IMO, the answer is - thanks to a great ability to deal with timing issues that let them forget problems described above. However, the vast majority of best ballstrikers were low plane golfers which suggests that neither TSP approaching impact, nor huge plane shifts are good for ballstriking. And even if they happened rarely to have upright backswings, they usually were capable to shift back beautifully to the low plane during the downswing and follow the idea of swinging perpendicularily to spine (vide: the EEP concept).

Lastly, travesting Aristoteles = love Hogan, but love the truth more - that's why I have widened my researches to many more golfers than Hogan. Granted, I deal only with finding the way to automate the motion, that's why I appear to wander in the area of low plane golfers only.


Cheers

 

[Brian Manzella]

I am sorry to point it out and to add bitter taste to a really good list a bit - but you forgot to add:

who were the most consistent and best ballstrikers ? Hogan, Moe, Trevino, Knudsen, Wright...not only faders but all of them low plane golfers without crappy upright backswings.

Forgive me my frankness, but you want to be looked as the most objective of all great teachers (and we all need such !) - therefore, you cannot avoid truth that does not suit your beliefs.

Cheers

Cheers right back at cha Dariusz J....

Dr. Zick never said that the upright BACKSWING was the be all and end all, he just explained why it works for a lot of golfers, baseballers, and other sports.

He talked a lot about Harry Vardon's swing as well.

I could care less about upright or flat, I teach both.

That's the part all the folks with a horse in the race seem to forget.

I AM THE MOST OBJECTIVE teacher around, but I do like to stick up for the little "components," the ones that get toss aside.

Nothing wrong with a flat backswing.

Nothing wrong with a straight-on kicker.

Nothing wrong with an upright backswing, Mr. Nicklaus, Mr. Trahan.

Nothing wrong with some good old-fashioned weight-shift either.

I wrote the above post after getting sick to my stomach watching a teacher go through a bunch of non-science to explain himself.

I didn't even know Zick was going to call.

BTW, we talked about optimized through the ball plane angles as well, a subject you'd like, and will be covered by all three scientists at the symposium.

My "glee" above wasn't directed to being found right about somethings, it was about how brilliant these three guys are, and how this symposium is going to be the cat's arse.

That's all.

 

[ej20]

Damon,

I am not totally against upright swings, they have their biokinetic merits - I am more against hatrid to low plane swings.

Now, answering your question - if I am to advice a golfer who lacks distance above all other faults - I would advice a more upright swing and a more armsy swing. No doubt. However, in 99% of cases I know what amateur hackers need is consistency and repeatability. Neither upright planes nor motions with not well synchronized with main body armsy motion are good for it.
Why some of the best ballstrikers could have upright planes ? IMO, the answer is - thanks to a great ability to deal with timing issues that let them forget problems described above. However, the vast majority of best ballstrikers were low plane golfers which suggests that neither TSP approaching impact, nor huge plane shifts are good for ballstriking. And even if they happened rarely to have upright backswings, they usually were capable to shift back beautifully to the low plane during the downswing and follow the idea of swinging perpendicularily to spine (vide: the EEP concept).

Lastly, travesting Aristoteles = love Hogan, but love the truth more - that's why I have widened my researches to many more golfers than Hogan. Granted, I deal only with finding the way to automate the motion, that's why I appear to wander in the area of low plane golfers only.


Cheers

In your opinion what are the biokinetic advantages of a steepish,above elbow plane downswing?

Also have you succesfully turned a natural steep downswing player into a flat downswing player?Do you think you could have coached Tom Watson,Hale Irwin and Bruce Lietzke into better ballstrikers?

 

[Brian Manzella]

In your opinion what are the biokinetic advantages of a steepish,above elbow plane downswing?

Also have you succesfully turned a natural steep downswing player into a flat downswing player?Do you think you could have coached Tom Watson,Hale Irwin and Bruce Lietzke into better ballstrikers?

We have been there and done that....

Listen PLEASE PLEASE wait to after the MANZIPOSIUM.

Then we'll talk about it until the cows come home.

 

[James Marshall (Hogan1953)]

Damon,

I am not totally against upright swings, they have their biokinetic merits - I am more against hatrid to low plane swings.

Now, answering your question - if I am to advice a golfer who lacks distance above all other faults - I would advice a more upright swing and a more armsy swing. No doubt. However, in 99% of cases I know what amateur hackers need is consistency and repeatability. Neither upright planes nor motions with not well synchronized with main body armsy motion are good for it.
Why some of the best ballstrikers could have upright planes ? IMO, the answer is - thanks to a great ability to deal with timing issues that let them forget problems described above. However, the vast majority of best ballstrikers were low plane golfers which suggests that neither TSP approaching impact, nor huge plane shifts are good for ballstriking. And even if they happened rarely to have upright backswings, they usually were capable to shift back beautifully to the low plane during the downswing and follow the idea of swinging perpendicularily to spine (vide: the EEP concept).

Lastly, travesting Aristoteles = love Hogan, but love the truth more - that's why I have widened my researches to many more golfers than Hogan. Granted, I deal only with finding the way to automate the motion, that's why I appear to wander in the area of low plane golfers only.


Cheers

What is it about upright/armsy swings that allow them to generate more speed?

Thanks

 

[Dariusz J.]

Thumbs up !

Cheers right back at cha Dariusz J....

Dr. Zick never said that the upright BACKSWING was the be all and end all, he just explained why it works for a lot of golfers, baseballers, and other sports.

He talked a lot about Harry Vardon's swing as well.

I could care less about upright or flat, I teach both.

That's the part all the folks with a horse in the race seem to forget.

I AM THE MOST OBJECTIVE teacher around, but I do like to stick up for the little "components," the ones that get toss aside.

Nothing wrong with a flat backswing.

Nothing wrong with a straight-on kicker.

Nothing wrong with an upright backswing, Mr. Nicklaus, Mr. Trahan.

Nothing wrong with some good old-fashioned weight-shift either.

I wrote the above post after getting sick to my stomach watching a teacher go through a bunch of non-science to explain himself.

I didn't even know Zick was going to call.

BTW, we talked about optimized through the ball plane angles as well, a subject you'd like, and will be covered by all three scientists at the symposium.

My "glee" above wasn't directed to being found right about somethings, it was about how brilliant these three guys are, and how this symposium is going to be the cat's arse.

That's all.

Very well. I appreciate this post more than you think.

First, as you already confirmed, the scientists must try to define correctly what's flat, what's upright. I do propose to use as a reference, the state of perpendiculatity to the spine - what's below it it's flat, what's above it's upright.
Second, I do hope that once and for all the Anti-Summit confirms that repeatability/consistency depends on synchronization between distal parts and main body (core) in a rotary motion the golf swing is and that the synchronization can be more efficiently achieved in case of already mentioned square relation to the spine.
I do expect, what I already said in this post to Damon, that upright swings give much more room for power but for errors as well (typical qui pro quo situation) simply because of anatomy (shoulder joints mechanics). That's why it would be good to have an ortopaedist at the Anti-Summit.

Cheers

In your opinion what are the biokinetic advantages of a steepish,above elbow plane downswing?

Also have you succesfully turned a natural steep downswing player into a flat downswing player?Do you think you could have coached Tom Watson,Hale Irwin and Bruce Lietzke into better ballstrikers?

As mentioned above - more freedom, more power and...more errors.

Tom Watson said himself that if he could return in time he would never ever used such a high plane motion. I believe there is even YT vid available when he announces to some audience that he NOW KNOW what a good swing motion looks like. The vid, if I remember correctly, is from early 2000s.

Cheers

We have been there and done that....

Listen PLEASE PLEASE wait to after the MANZIPOSIUM.

Then we'll talk about it until the cows come home.

I do agree. Let's wait.

Cheers

 

[Dariusz J.]

What is it about upright/armsy swings that allow them to generate more speed?

Thanks

Simple biophysics. Upright motions give the shoulder joints more freedom (longer backswing, less dependence on the main body motion).


Cheers

 

[Wilson!]

Who is the longest hitter in Golf history?

Jamie Sadlowski

Wasn't that Jason Zuback? At least he holds the record for the fastest ball ever in any sport (former record belonged to Jai Alai player José Ramón Areitio: 188 mph; Jason broke it in July 2009 with a golf ball speed of 204 mph).

And why not add noted drawer Sam Snead to the list of golf legends and recordmen? 82 PGA wins is worth something!

BTW, the best soccer players (I don't mean soccer style NFL guys, but soccer players) con also fade the ball and do it from time to time, though draws are easier and far more frequent.

 

[benstone]

BTW, the best soccer players (I don't mean soccer style NFL guys, but soccer players) con also fade the ball and do it from time to time, though draws are easier and far more frequent.

They certainly can. See Roberto Carlos score one of the best free kicks I have ever seen by fading it around the wall, and from a good distance as well ([media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pl0LHM-33Io[/media]).

As for Brian's football kickers, I thought that you might be interested in Paul Thorburn's penalty kick for the Welsh Rugby Union team against Scotland ([media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTtTbcfwCMA[/media]). I think it is still the longest at 71 yards, and he took it "Soccer" style. Not sure how relevant that is to a discussion on the golf swing, but I thought I would put it out there. Please note the lack of any padding or helmets, as Rugby Union is a sport for men rather than boys ;-). As a bonus, some classic commentary from Bill McLaren.

 

[birly-shirly]

They certainly can. See Roberto Carlos score one of the best free kicks I have ever seen by fading it around the wall, and from a good distance as well ([media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pl0LHM-33Io[/media]).

As for Brian's football kickers, I thought that you might be interested in Paul Thorburn's penalty kick for the Welsh Rugby Union team against Scotland ([media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTtTbcfwCMA[/media]). I think it is still the longest at 71 yards, and he took it "Soccer" style. Not sure how relevant that is to a discussion on the golf swing, but I thought I would put it out there. Please note the lack of any padding or helmets, as Rugby Union is a sport for men rather than boys ;-). As a bonus, some classic commentary from Bill McLaren.

So, what is the correct terminology for kicking a soccer ball off a straight run-up? A Brazilian?