Dreaded Over-the-Top

[shootin4par]

quote:Originally posted by c21heel

All my videos that I have taken lately show that I get in a pretty good position at the top of the swing. Sometimes I take it a little too inside, other times I might take it a little too far outside. But, nothing gross. At the top of my swing, my hands are just over my right shoulder with a nice triangle.
!

well just the other day you said "I re-looked at my video and the club was definitely crossing below my shoulders. And the butt of the club is pointing beyond the target line. Way too flat." Seems like we are a little unsure of where it is at. Hands can be above the shoulder and still have the club head too far inside.

 

[Michael Finney]

well, the club does go downward, outward, and forward during the downsing (and hopefully while the ball is on the face during the impact interval).....if the club gets to "open", it could be going upward (throwaway), inward (slicer's path), and forward........

the more you master brian's concepts, the less "open" your clubface will be....the less "open", the more chance you have to drive the ball into the ground while hitting the "inside-back quarter" of the ball with an acceptable clubface.....DOWN and OUT

 

[c21heel]

shootin4par, when I said lately I was referring to this week, not the past year. I appreciate your help, but you can rest assured that I know what I'm talking about!

 

[c21heel]

Mike, I honestly believe I could do twistaway and and do full roll swivel and still pull the ball with divots pointing to the left. In fact, I did that during my lesson with Brian and we progressed to working on swinging under the stick, which seemed to work very well under the careful eye of Brian.

I think the key is you have to do all the above while hitting the ball from the inside, which is the problem that I'm working on.

Back to the backswing. The backswing is very important, I won't debate that. But, I don't think it's as important as the Downswing...in my opinion. I think there are too many examples of varying Backswings on all the Professional tours to substantiate my opinion. But, most all of them look similar at impact, which just so happens to be on the Downswing.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

Just to add to this....my divots went left because i didn't keep my right shoulder going down plane correctly and would lose my tilt through impact and the upper body would pull the arms to the left. I'd get a pull all day long out of it and if i angle hinged it, i'd hit a pull-fade.

 

[shootin4par]

quote:Originally posted by c21heel

shootin4par, when I said lately I was referring to this week, not the past year. I appreciate your help, but you can rest assured that I know what I'm talking about!

I reread the entire post to make sure I am not reading something that you did not imply, if you reread then you should understand that you first implied the back swing was good, then you said you watched again and realized it was below the shoulder, all i can go on is your words

 

[c21heel]

Jim, what you are saying makes a lot sense to me. How would a level shoulder turn on the backswing impact flatness?

Seems to me that someone who turned their shoulders more down on the backswing would have a little more vertical backswing.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

quote:Originally posted by c21heel
Jim, what you are saying makes a lot sense to me. How would a level shoulder turn on the backswing impact flatness?

I don't know what you mean by flatness

quote:Seems to me that someone who turned their shoulders more down on the backswing would have a little more vertical backswing.

You can use an elbow plane backswing (pretty much the flattest) or the turning shoulder backswing (the steepest) and IDEALLY the right shoulder will still travel down the plane.

What i am referring to in my post above is that instead of keeping my tilt until the ball is gone, i "come out" of the tilted position and this trows the right shoulder and club OUT OVER the plane. Not an "over the top" move from the top but somewhere close to release point. When you lose your tilt the shoulders rotate more around than down and it "pulls" everything LEFT.

 

[c21heel]

Shootin4par, I guess there was a little confusion (my fault) because of the way I worded my post. I have worked about 4 hours a day on my backswing since that post and it actually looks pretty good. The butt of the club points at the target line at 9 o'clock and continues on a nice path to the top. Problem is...my much improved backswing did nothing for my tendency to come over the top. I appreciate your help and I apologize if my post came across rude.

Mike and Jim, I scurried to the local nine-hole course after work and really worked hard on axis tilt and full roll swivel. On the first tee, I tried to close the toe of my Driver into the ground, but actually hit one of my best Drives of the year! What really seemed to work well for me today was feeling like I was dragging the back of my left hand (knuckles down) along the ground into a full roll swivel...with axis tilt of course.

Worked today, but my putting sucked. Can't have it all I guess!

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

quote:Originally posted by c21heel

feeling like I was dragging the back of my left hand (knuckles down) along the ground into a full roll swivel...with axis tilt of course.

Worked today, but my putting sucked. Can't have it all I guess!

That's exactly what you want to do. Something i showed someone to try and get the idea of full roll and swivel was to take an impact fix position and then position the club about 2-4 feet behind the ball and in from it. Then draaaaaaaag it through impact and once you make contact with the ball begin to roll the entire left arm.

One the best things brian ever told me in my first lesson..."jimmy, turn your left hand into the ground through impact. Feel like your dragging your knuckles along the ground."

 

[c21heel]

Jim, out of curiosity, my Driver and Long Iron trajectory was noticeably lower today. Almost too low.

I'm guessing this could be caused by a lack of sufficient axis tilt?

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

yes it's possible. Were any of them pulls? Also if you're ott you will deloft the club more and flight it lower

 

[c21heel]

No pulls with the long irons, low but straight. I'll focus a little more on axis tilt tomorrow.

 

[ej20]

quote:Originally posted by c21heel

I have fought the ole dreaded over-the-top move all my golfing life (10 years). I spent most of this time struggling with poor alignment (I'm right handed and aimed too far right) that I think caused me to have to swing over-the-top to get the ball back to target. Unfortunately, I'm having a hard time breaking the habit.

I have worked with "swing under the stick" and "focus on the inside of the ball" with varying degrees of success. And, I've tried focusing on the right shoulder, but tend to hit the ball fat when I do that.

Any other visualations that I can use until Brian gets back to Louisville?

If all else fails,you could try what I did.I shortened my backswing to about a 3/4 swing and to that i also swing out to right field.I had a stubborn over the top move and now my divots are consistently straight.I have GAINED distance as well,so a short backswing doesn't mean lost distance.

I tried looping,dropping the right shoulder,re-routing,dropping my hands,keeping my back to the target,all to no avail because it didn't feel natural and hard to repeat because it was hard to do(for me anyway)and the swing needs to be easy to execute if it is going to be succesful on the golf course under real pressure.

My theory is that the longer your backswing is(particularly the arm swing),the harder it is to get back on plane.Have a look at Brian's swing in his signature,the shaft nowhere near parallel at the top with a shortish arm swing.It is much easier to swing down on plane from this position without much effort.

 

[vandal]

I'll second the "shortened" backswing method. It's tough at first, but I'm getting it engrained pretty well. I'm a chronic OTT and nothing helped as much as this. Funny thing is that my 3/4 swing looks longer than most people's full swing. I concentrate on tracing the plane with a RFP and stop when my hands think they are shoulder high. It's much easier for me to stay on plane from there and my body (pivot) does what the (almost)educated hands tell it to do.

 

[Erik_K]

quote:Originally posted by ej20

quote:Originally posted by c21heel

I have fought the ole dreaded over-the-top move all my golfing life (10 years). I spent most of this time struggling with poor alignment (I'm right handed and aimed too far right) that I think caused me to have to swing over-the-top to get the ball back to target. Unfortunately, I'm having a hard time breaking the habit.

I have worked with "swing under the stick" and "focus on the inside of the ball" with varying degrees of success. And, I've tried focusing on the right shoulder, but tend to hit the ball fat when I do that.

Any other visualations that I can use until Brian gets back to Louisville?

If all else fails,you could try what I did.I shortened my backswing to about a 3/4 swing and to that i also swing out to right field.I had a stubborn over the top move and now my divots are consistently straight.I have GAINED distance as well,so a short backswing doesn't mean lost distance.

I tried looping,dropping the right shoulder,re-routing,dropping my hands,keeping my back to the target,all to no avail because it didn't feel natural and hard to repeat because it was hard to do(for me anyway)and the swing needs to be easy to execute if it is going to be succesful on the golf course under real pressure.

My theory is that the longer your backswing is(particularly the arm swing),the harder it is to get back on plane.Have a look at Brian's swing in his signature,the shaft nowhere near parallel at the top with a shortish arm swing.It is much easier to swing down on plane from this position without much effort.

You almost always swing further back than it feels. So let's say you are making an overly long swing in general and you employ the 3/4 backswing approach, it's possible that you'll be close to parallel at the top or maybe a hair short. But it FEELS way shorter than your old move and, yes, it's easier to be more consistent with a shorter move. That's something I've been trying to fix as well.

 

[Archie Swivel]

Since Orlando, I have made my backswing the longest possible WITHOUT letting the top of my vertebrae (the C-1 Cervical vertebrae) reverse back or point back to the target. Once the C-1 starts to creep targetward, it all falls apart for me.

 

[c21heel]

Archie Swivel, C-1 Cervical Verterbrae? That's impressive that you could refer to your back by a numerical verterbrae!

So, does that mean you don't try to turn your back to the target?

 

[Archie Swivel]

quote:Originally posted by c21heel

Archie Swivel, C-1 Cervical Verterbrae? That's impressive that you could refer to your back by a numerical verterbrae!

So, does that mean you don't try to turn your back to the target?

No. I just don't want the tip of my spine to curl targetward.

 

[ej20]

I understand that feel and real are not the same.When I say 3/4 backswing,I mean for real,despite what you feel which is totally subjective from person to person.Of course,if you can make a long backswing work then more power to you.Nothing is set in stone other than the imperatives.Hogan,Moe and Trevino all had 3/4ish backswings.They were deadly accurate,consistent and it seems they were not that short either considering their size.