Drills for hands control pivot

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EdZ

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I've been fighting too much leg drive for years, thanks to Hogan's book/elastic image years ago.

What are some of the best drills for getting a better balance between hands control and pivot control? I feel a fairly weak arms only type move when I try strick hands control and I know that is too far to the other extreme.
 
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corky05

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Maybe not as far off as you might think? I saw this at the Evershed-Canadian move site. I was kind of surprised!

(Quote from Evershed)
The Body



In the overall view of the golf swing, a person saying that they get distance from their weight shift or their body could most likely not be swayed in a court of law. This is because I do get distance from my weight shift but it's the on-plane swinging action of my arms combined with the educated motion of the hands that causes my weight to get shifted. Secondly, I can hit the ball further if my weight gets shifted to my front foot – 3% further but that's it.



My problem with statements such as, “you get power and/or speed from your weight shift” is that anyone reading that does not see any of the other factors such as, your educated hands produce 76% of the power, your on-plane arms produce 16% of the power and the vertical drop produces 5% of the power in the golf swing. Therefore, they never spend any time working on the major factors. The golfer just spends wasted time trying to hit the ball with their big muscles (they can't move very fast), and very little time working on the little muscles which can move very fast. If the power comes from the big muscles and/or weight shift, why don't the big guys on tour hit the ball percentage-wise, that much further than the little guys.



Example:

Andy Bean weighs 230 lbs and his average driving distance is 270 yards. Corey Pavin weighs 135 lbs and his average driving distance is 260 yards.
(End Quote)
 
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EdZ

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So a feet together drill (or left foot right toe) is really hands control? Isn't that what Flick gets all the flack about, too much arms, not enough pivot?
 
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rundmc

Banned
quote:Originally posted by EdZ

So a feet together drill (or left foot right toe) is really hands control? Isn't that what Flick gets all the flack about, too much arms, not enough pivot?
Click to expand...

I would say the critics of Flick from a TGM perspective would probably say yes, Flick is a hands and arms guy. But it's how he advises using the hands that's the problem. He advises cocking BOTH the left and RIGHT WRIST . . . which is a TGM No. No.
 
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EdZ

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Still not sure I understand the 'feel' that this is after. I was just working on some feet together drills, then some 120 yard full motion 7 iron shots (usual length is 163) - Is the feel of hands control that of 'swinging past your chin'? Seems rather weak to me. For full shots I am about 1 to 2 clubs shorter than when I just let my lower body fire through. Certainly more feel in the hands and better misses, but with weaker balloon flight, no sizzle. I worked on getting more lag pressure, and that helped a bit, but only with short punch shots. Too many years of firing those hips hard I guess.
 
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EdZ

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All this fuss about hands control and nobody else wants to post anything about it? no drills?

Interesting.

Practiced this a bit more today, more focus on 'down' and compression, and the sizzle and distance is back.
 
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wanole

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quote:Originally posted by EdZ

All this fuss about hands control and nobody else wants to post anything about it? no drills?

Interesting.

Practiced this a bit more today, more focus on 'down' and compression, and the sizzle and distance is back.
Click to expand...

IMO, Just work on your educated hands and concentrate on them rather than your torso. Let the torso follow. ie. don't think of, must start downswing with legs or hips. Isn't that what learning the educated hands is all about?

I am surprised you have questions about this since you seem so knowledgeable about the tougher things of TGM. Not a dig, just surprised. I like when you post about TGM, so please don't take offense. :)
 
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EdZ

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No offense taken. I've always been a pivot control swinger, knowing the 'best' ideal is a 'tie' between hands and pivot. I've had aggressive hips since I was a kid. Fairly strange, almost a 'flat footed' feel when I try hands control, but I have been working on getting at the 'ideal' from the other side of the coin, so to speak.

I would consider the move/feels of this to be more
'educated arm swing' vs educated hands, which I personally equate to a feel for the flying wedge(s). No doubt that either way the 'mind is in the hands', for good reason.
 
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EdZ

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You can 'know where your hands are' and have pivot control - the feel is both in the hands AND in the feet IMO.

No I don't feel the wedges in my arms. The feel of the 'unit' of the hands is separate from the relative 'feel' of the sequence of body vs arms, but yes, I am speeding up my arms.

njmp - would you agree to the 'feel' of 'swinging your hands past your chin'?
 
bts

bts

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The pivot will react accordingly to the hands action of pulling or pushing (or doing whatever to) a "LAGGED" or resisting club (due to inertia).

Pull or push the club (WITH THE HANDS only) parallel to the ground at the waist level or on the top grabbed firmly at the tip by a guy from behind (mimicking the "sustained LAG") and let the PIVOT react (be CONTROLLED).
 
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rundmc

Banned
quote:Originally posted by EdZ

All this fuss about hands control and nobody else wants to post anything about it? no drills?

Interesting.

Practiced this a bit more today, more focus on 'down' and compression, and the sizzle and distance is back.
Click to expand...

There's a ton of stuff you can do to "educate" your hands and thus learn hand controlled pivot. Check the posts on this forum and chuck's on dowel drills. Yoda has some great examples out there. The thing about the dowels is you don't have a clubhead to worry about. You can totally focus on what your hands are doing without letting your attention drift to the clubhead. These drills have been extremely helpful to me. Also getting a two lasers or two flashlights are good in terms of learning what it means to be on plane. There's a big thread here about winter drills and using an impact bag. It's got some great stuff. The dowel drills work big time.

However, if you don't understand what it looks like to have a LEVEL bent right wrist and what the difference between LEVEL and uncocked is, you have no chance. You have to get your mind right first.

I'm still in the infant stages of my development, but now at least I know when I'm screwing up and what it is I have to do. Once you have the understanding of the wrist positions and how the wedges work, you've got what you need to play the game. You just have to execute and trust. When you have the concepts correct and can execute reasonably well, your bad shots will not curve nearly as much.

I didn't get all this stuff by reading the book. I don't see how anyone could get a complete understanding of how critical LEVEL is and the wedges are without the help of an AI. I have access to a great one. Ecox is the bomb. I would still be grasping at straws if I hadn't gone to see him.
 
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EdZ

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Thanks rundmc, very nice post. I feel like my hands have a fairly solid grasp of the wedge(s) and alignments, it is mainly the arm vs body motion that I am working on, a timing/rhythm issue - having been such a pivot control player for so many years.
 
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MizunoJoe

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A proper slide of the hips is required BEFORE a pressure point is directed toward the aiming point. I don't think this can happen as a reaction to the hands which move way faster than the hips. Remember what Homer said - everything must be past the ball(line of sight) at impact, except the right shoulder and right foot.
 
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densikat

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Mizuno: I think you will find taking the hands straight down plane and the right shoulder going downplane will cause the hip bump
 
rwh

rwh

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Zones 2 & 3 (Arms-Hands-Power Package) move independent from Zone 1 (Body - Pivot- Shoulder Turn- Hip Turn - Hip Action, etc.) Therefore, a movement of the hands/arms cannot "cause" Hip Action.

For sure, the Right Hip must get out of the way. The sequence taught by Yoda and Chuck is Hip Action first, then hands. Though not specifcally stated, Brian's instructional article imples the same. By the way, it's not a very big move -- just a couple inches. In the following video, Yoda demonstrates this starting at about 45 seconds:

http://howtobuildyourgolfswing.com/video_files/HittingSwingingS.wmv

I also note that 7-15 states that the Hips "lead" the downswing.
 
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MizunoJoe

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densikat,

Go to Chuck Evans site and check the 'Homer's Notes' thread under the Golfing Machine. "#8. The hip slide starts the downswing."
 
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MizunoJoe

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rwh,

A couple of inches may be correct for someone who "plays between the insides of their feet". But for someone who moves the left hip over the left heel, it's more like 6"-8".
 
rwh

rwh

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quote:Originally posted by MizunoJoe

rwh,

A couple of inches may be correct for someone who "plays between the insides of their feet". But for someone who moves the left hip over the left heel, it's more like 6"-8".
Click to expand...

No disagreement. I was only trying to indicate how much movement is necessary to "clear" a path for the hands.
 
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