Effect of club length on lag??

[Tball88]

Recently, I had been struggling maintaining lag with the driver. I was hanging back on the right side and releasing my right wrist a little into impact. The result was my launch angle with my driver was about 15%.

I was wanting to lower this and I started choking up a bit on the driver and noticed I stopped hanging back and was able to get my hands much more in front of the club and was able to get my launch angle down to as little as 7 degrees(probably too low).

Anyway, I wonder if the longer drivers are making it more difficult to keep from bottoming out early.

 

[flapro]

This is a great question and I suspect you are right. Also, notice tour pro's and others are playing 43 1/2 to 44 inch shafts.

Recently, I had been struggling maintaining lag with the driver. I was hanging back on the right side and releasing my right wrist a little into impact. The result was my launch angle with my driver was about 15%.

I was wanting to lower this and I started choking up a bit on the driver and noticed I stopped hanging back and was able to get my hands much more in front of the club and was able to get my launch angle down to as little as 7 degrees(probably too low).

Anyway, I wonder if the longer drivers are making it more difficult to keep from bottoming out early.

 

[puttmad]

Some of the long drive guys use standard length shafts too...and they ping it for miles....
Apparently with longer shaft lengths you have to swing "easy" so there is not much point for the average golfer, besides which, every extra inch of length only adds 2% to your distance...

 

[Tball88]

Interesting point. Each extra inch only adds 2%. So if you shorten a a 45 inch shaft to 43 and average 250 off the tee you would lose about 10 yards. However, I wonder how much you would pick up by hitting the sweet spot more consistently?

 

[Dariusz J.]

Interesting point. Each extra inch only adds 2%. So if you shorten a a 45 inch shaft to 43 and average 250 off the tee you would lose about 10 yards. However, I wonder how much you would pick up by hitting the sweet spot more consistently?

This is exactly what Tom Wishon recommends. Moreover, you'd lose those 10 yards only in case you hit the sweetspot in both drivers. If you hit the sweetspot with a short one and miss it with a long one, not only you are more accurate, but you can achieve similar distace off the tee or even also a bit longer, depending how much you miss the sweetspot.

Cheers

 

[d0n]

This is an interesting topic. I had a custom built driver with a 46" shaft. It was not uncommon for me to carry this driver 300+ yards and when I didn't slice it I averaged around 270yds (measured with a pinseeker range finder.) That all changed when I decided to take lessons so that I could hit the rest of my clubs. Long story short - from the time I started taking lessons till 9 months later I was slicing the driver on just about every shot. I started working on the driver again and was able to work the slice out.

I read a lot of articles about cutting the driver shaft down to gain better accuracy. Even before cutting down the shaft (46") I could no longer hit bomb drives. I was averaging 250 carry but the ball was all over the place. I cut the shaft down to 44" and I could control it a little better but the yardage went down to 240 carry. No where near the 270 + roll I was getting pre-lessons. Frustrated I bought a new FT-i driver and had it reshafted and cut down to 44". I carry it in the 240 range again but MUCH more playable.

Now the frustrating part is how can I go from bombing the driver to hitting it "normal"? I understand golf isn't a game of distance but it would seem that if you were long off the tee before you learned to hit your irons, you should be able to have that same distance or atleast have the potential to hit that distance. What really sucks is though I had no iron game I was invited to play on a lot of scramble teams because of my drive and 30 handicap. Now I'ma regular Joe golfer who doesn't have a big handicap or a long drive and no invites...

I'm going to experiment with some longer driver shafts and drivers over the next couple of weeks while I'm off from work. Perhaps I won't be able to keep the ball in the fairway but I'd like to make sure that 44" is my length. BTW I'm 6'3 250lbs.

 

[puttmad]

...

This is an interesting topic. I had a custom built driver with a 46" shaft. It was not uncommon for me to carry this driver 300+ yards and when I didn't slice it I averaged around 270yds (measured with a pinseeker range finder.) That all changed when I decided to take lessons so that I could hit the rest of my clubs. Long story short - from the time I started taking lessons till 9 months later I was slicing the driver on just about every shot. I started working on the driver again and was able to work the slice out.

I read a lot of articles about cutting the driver shaft down to gain better accuracy. Even before cutting down the shaft (46") I could no longer hit bomb drives. I was averaging 250 carry but the ball was all over the place. I cut the shaft down to 44" and I could control it a little better but the yardage went down to 240 carry. No where near the 270 + roll I was getting pre-lessons. Frustrated I bought a new FT-i driver and had it reshafted and cut down to 44". I carry it in the 240 range again but MUCH more playable.

Now the frustrating part is how can I go from bombing the driver to hitting it "normal"? I understand golf isn't a game of distance but it would seem that if you were long off the tee before you learned to hit your irons, you should be able to have that same distance or atleast have the potential to hit that distance. What really sucks is though I had no iron game I was invited to play on a lot of scramble teams because of my drive and 30 handicap. Now I'ma regular Joe golfer who doesn't have a big handicap or a long drive and no invites...

I'm going to experiment with some longer driver shafts and drivers over the next couple of weeks while I'm off from work. Perhaps I won't be able to keep the ball in the fairway but I'd like to make sure that 44" is my length. BTW I'm 6'3 250lbs.

Seems likely that you were given some wrong info during your lessons...It's not the clubs at fault....

 

[Dariusz J.]

This is an interesting topic. I had a custom built driver with a 46" shaft. It was not uncommon for me to carry this driver 300+ yards and when I didn't slice it I averaged around 270yds (measured with a pinseeker range finder.) That all changed when I decided to take lessons so that I could hit the rest of my clubs. Long story short - from the time I started taking lessons till 9 months later I was slicing the driver on just about every shot. I started working on the driver again and was able to work the slice out.

I read a lot of articles about cutting the driver shaft down to gain better accuracy. Even before cutting down the shaft (46") I could no longer hit bomb drives. I was averaging 250 carry but the ball was all over the place. I cut the shaft down to 44" and I could control it a little better but the yardage went down to 240 carry. No where near the 270 + roll I was getting pre-lessons. Frustrated I bought a new FT-i driver and had it reshafted and cut down to 44". I carry it in the 240 range again but MUCH more playable.

Now the frustrating part is how can I go from bombing the driver to hitting it "normal"? I understand golf isn't a game of distance but it would seem that if you were long off the tee before you learned to hit your irons, you should be able to have that same distance or atleast have the potential to hit that distance. What really sucks is though I had no iron game I was invited to play on a lot of scramble teams because of my drive and 30 handicap. Now I'ma regular Joe golfer who doesn't have a big handicap or a long drive and no invites...

I'm going to experiment with some longer driver shafts and drivers over the next couple of weeks while I'm off from work. Perhaps I won't be able to keep the ball in the fairway but I'd like to make sure that 44" is my length. BTW I'm 6'3 250lbs.

Don, when you cut your driver shaft have you increased SW/MOI of the club by adding some extra weight to the head ? Usually, the whole club and the very shaft characteristics change when cutting it off 2" and you need to make some compensations.

Cheers

 

[flapro]

The length of the shaft influences lag by changing the angles at impact. If you were used to achieving certain angles with a 46" driver which gave you that distance, then you cut say 2" off the shaft, you need to re-establish that relationship of the angles at impact because the relationship of the hands and shaft angle changed.
I too had a similar experience in two ways:
I had temporarily lost my lag and asked several pro's how to get it back. They couldn't tell me.
Also, I cut my 46" driver down to 44.5" and couldn't hit it 200 yds. I realized that my lag had changed and I was now sweeping or releasing early because my brain was still thinking 46" but in reality it was 1.5" shorter which caused me to flip.
Maybe a good question for this forum would be a step by step summary of how to create lag especially with driver. For instance, I know how not to do it, ie.
1. don't bend too much from the knees at address-this causes one to lift up out of the shot
2. don't try to dominate the downswing with the hands-doing this destroys the wrist angles at impact

 

[Brian Manzella]

Generator Lag and Club Length

"Hey Brian, what is Generator Lag?"

Good question.

Aaron Zick said that the word "Accumulator" is misused, and "Generator" would be more scientifically correct.

Viola!

As for the effects on Club Length and G Lag, usually, the longer the club, the LESS the angle.

Why?

Because of WHERE the weight is, you need to snap a longer towel.

I'll try to do a video quickie on this, but just think about how EASY it is to snap a half-towel with a golf-like motion and how hard it is to snap a WHOLE towel.

The length and weight distribution just eats most golfers up.

 

[d0n]

AHHHHH so for once it could very well be the arrows and not the archer?

Is there a swing weight to shaft length curve for retaining lag angle or is it pretty much the longer the shaft the less the lag angle?

 

[Dariusz J.]

The bigger the SW/MOI of the club the easier is to create lag angle at transition, however, the easier is also to lose it during downswing.

I advocate the opinion of that the optimal SW of the club (especially driver) should be choosen during a fitting session that consists of the following procedure:
a golfer hits balls first with a club with relatively low SW (say, C5); his SS and PTR are measured accordingly; after a representative number of swings, the SW of the club is being gradually increased until the moment in that a golfer's SS and PTR starts to decrease visibly (because the overall weight of the club is too big). The last SW level before the decrease is more or less a correct one for the golfer to create and hold the optimal amount of lag angle.


Cheers

 

[starretj]

Darius J.,
Have you noticed any general patterns from your fittings,i.e. most use too high a SW or too low, off the shelf clubs have too high or too low of a SW, lower handicappers vs. high handicappers?

Jim S.

 

[Dariusz J.]

Jim, it's very difficult to draw general conclusions - perhaps more experienced clubfitters can do it.
What I can tell you is that the majority of OEM men's drivers from shelfs of shops are of D0-D2 swingweight which is rather good for most recreational golfers (let's say, people working in OEMs are not idiots). More accomplished ones prefer bigger SW/MOI just because they have less problems in preserving the previously created lag angle - and they want this angle biggest possible. Lead tape to be wrapped around the hosel in experiments is your biggest friend, believe me.
Last but not least, if someone cuts a driver down, its SW/MOI drastically lowers. In such cases, I'd risk to say that 99.9% of golfers should compensate to it by making the SW/MOI higher and 50% of them would benefit in obtaining even higher SW/MOI that they had previously in their longer drivers.

Cheers

 

[tongzilla]

Brian, looking at pros, it seems like they create a sharper angle with their driver than sand wedge half way down their downswing.

 

[Brian Manzella]

"Absolutely, Babe" --Don Villavaso

Brian, looking at pros, it seems like they create a sharper angle with their driver than sand wedge half way down their downswing.

Leo you are correct.

I just said the weights effect would LEFT ALONE be the other way around.

But they NEED OOMPH with the Driver, and DISTANCE and SPIN control with the wedges.

So they engineer it!

 

[flapro]

Dariuz, I find that due to my difficulty getting wrist hinge on the backswing, I could get more hinge if I SW my R7 tp to a D 8 or 9; this did two things, it gave me more hinge and also slowed my transition-all good things.
I recently hit my friends SMT 455 high bore which is sw to D2 and couldn't get anything from it.
Does that make sense?
Any drills to get more wrist hinge?

Jim, it's very difficult to draw general conclusions - perhaps more experienced clubfitters can do it.
What I can tell you is that the majority of OEM men's drivers from shelfs of shops are of D0-D2 swingweight which is rather good for most recreational golfers (let's say, people working in OEMs are not idiots). More accomplished ones prefer bigger SW/MOI just because they have less problems in preserving the previously created lag angle - and they want this angle biggest possible. Lead tape to be wrapped around the hosel in experiments is your biggest friend, believe me.
Last but not least, if someone cuts a driver down, its SW/MOI drastically lowers. In such cases, I'd risk to say that 99.9% of golfers should compensate to it by making the SW/MOI higher and 50% of them would benefit in obtaining even higher SW/MOI that they had previously in their longer drivers.

Cheers

 

[tongzilla]

Leo you are correct.

I just said the weights effect would LEFT ALONE be the other way around.

But they NEED OOMPH with the Driver, and DISTANCE and SPIN control with the wedges.

So they engineer it!

when you say "engineer it", do you mean they do it actively with their wrists?

I don't think they do it with there wrists - more like the wrists are free but the pivot thrusts more dynamically which loads the club harder against the wrists.

There might be something in the towel experiment...but I know I can get more cock with the same amount of effort with a 100 inch club than a 20 inch club (with equal weight distribution).

 

[Tball88]

I don't know why and maybe someone here can explain. But I notice I have more luck maintaining lag when I hover the driver off the ground slightly as opposed to grounding the club.

Also, if anyone is a club fitter here can you esplain to me the relationships in shafts and spin rate. Ie: what kickpoint and shaft type typically generate lower spin rates. I consistently have about a 3500 spin rate on my driver and from what I've read ideally it would be less.

thx

 

[Dariusz J.]

Dariuz, I find that due to my difficulty getting wrist hinge on the backswing, I could get more hinge if I SW my R7 tp to a D 8 or 9; this did two things, it gave me more hinge and also slowed my transition-all good things.
I recently hit my friends SMT 455 high bore which is sw to D2 and couldn't get anything from it.
Does that make sense?
Any drills to get more wrist hinge?

It makes a perfect sense, mate. This is exactly what I was describing. What you need to do is to see if your D8-D9 SW is not too big or the overall weight of the club is not too big, since despite more lag your SS will be lower, because you'll not be able to keep it long enough.

Cheers