endless belt

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These questions are related to Brian's endless belt video answer...

How do you extend the line path? Does more axis tilt mean a longer line (and smaller pulley), or is there more to it? Will different shoulder turns (rotated vs.flat--or even "steep") have an effect?

How does the amount of Accumulator #3 angle apply to pulley size? And what would be the benefits of a large vs. a small pulley?
 
quote:Originally posted by armourall

These questions are related to Brian's endless belt video answer...

How do you extend the line path? Does more axis tilt mean a longer line (and smaller pulley), or is there more to it? Will different shoulder turns (rotated vs.flat--or even "steep") have an effect?

How does the amount of Accumulator #3 angle apply to pulley size? And what would be the benefits of a large vs. a small pulley?

Axis tilt is what makes the straight line delivery path possible - it's actually more of a straight line delivery effort. The pics in the yellow book are very exaggerated.

The larger the pulley, the higher the hand speed required, the smaller the pulley, the less hand speed required. The advantage of the smaller pulley is that high head speed is available to those without the pivotal speed of more talented players.

By setting up with high hands, i.e., minimizing #3, the pulley concept becomes much clearer.
 
Originally posted by MizunoJoe


The larger the pulley, the higher the hand speed required, the smaller the pulley, the less hand speed required. The advantage of the smaller pulley is that high head speed is available to those without the pivotal speed of more talented players.


MizunoJoe:

Are there any disadvantages to using a small pulley?

hiro
 
quote:Originally posted by armourall



How does the amount of Accumulator #3 angle apply to pulley size? And what would be the benefits of a large vs. a small pulley?

The bigger the Accumulator #3 angle, the earlier the Release must begin, and hence the larger the pulley.

Benefits of large pulley
Greater sense of Lag Pressure; a deliberate, heavy and positive stroke.

Benefits of small pulley
Faster clubhead speed for a given handspeed; "efforless power".
 
Can someone give examples of players with large/small pullies?

Just to make sure I understand...

This is one of the concepts I still an a little new to....hard to learn from text alone (thanks to Brian and his vid for clearing the fog).
 
quote:Originally posted by tongzilla

The bigger the Accumulator #3 angle, the earlier the Release must begin, and hence the larger the pulley.

With the exception of using up #3 in uncocking in a Swinging procedure. Since #2 and #3 are sequenced, with low hands at address, you can delay the release and then uncock past the address angle giving a small pulley.
 
quote:Originally posted by MizunoJoe

quote:Originally posted by hiroshiro


Are there any disadvantages to using a small pulley?

None, IF you can do it! ;)

Thanks, MizunoJoe.

Using a small pulley is something I have been working on recently with a fair degree of success, at least with the irons.
 
quote:Originally posted by MizunoJoe

quote:Originally posted by tongzilla

The bigger the Accumulator #3 angle, the earlier the Release must begin, and hence the larger the pulley.

With the exception of using up #3 in uncocking in a Swinging procedure. Since #2 and #3 are sequenced, with low hands at address, you can delay the release and then uncock past the address angle giving a small pulley.

There is no exception Joe -- everything else being equal, a bigger Accumulator #3 angle will give an earlier release and hence a larger pulley. Remember, the Left Wrist should always be Level at Impact. The amount of Accumulator #3 with a Level Left Wrist remains constant throughout the Stroke. Considering that the grip should always be placed under the heel of the left hand, this is what gives the Acuumulator #3 angle with a Level Left Wrist, regardless of how high or low you set your hands at Address. So, there will always be Accumulator #3 angle at Impact, and hence it can't be "used up" in the way you've described.
 
quote:Originally posted by tongzilla

quote:Originally posted by MizunoJoe

quote:Originally posted by tongzilla

The bigger the Accumulator #3 angle, the earlier the Release must begin, and hence the larger the pulley.

With the exception of using up #3 in uncocking in a Swinging procedure. Since #2 and #3 are sequenced, with low hands at address, you can delay the release and then uncock past the address angle giving a small pulley.

There is no exception Joe -- everything else being equal, a bigger Accumulator #3 angle will give an earlier release and hence a larger pulley. Remember, the Left Wrist should always be Level at Impact. The amount of Accumulator #3 with a Level Left Wrist remains constant throughout the Stroke. Considering that the grip should always be placed under the heel of the left hand, this is what gives the Acuumulator #3 angle with a Level Left Wrist, regardless of how high or low you set your hands at Address. So, there will always be Accumulator #3 angle at Impact, and hence it can't be "used up" in the way you've described.

I didn't say #3 would be totally used up. But anyone who has low hands at address and goes through impact with the hands considerably higher has used up some #3 in uncocking. You need to look at some photos of Mac O from DTL. A large #3 angle at address can be thought of as a built in left wrist pre-cock, and has no bearing on where the release point is.
 
quote:Originally posted by MizunoJoe


But anyone who has low hands at address and goes through impact with the hands considerably higher has used up some #3 in uncocking.

No. When golfers have low hands at Address, it is almost always because their Left Wrist is Cocked, not because the grip is very far under the heel pad. As per my previous post, this means even though the hands are going to be much higher at Impact (because Left Wrist is Level), it doesn't mean more Accumulator #3 will be used through Impact!

quote:Originally posted by MizunoJoe


A large #3 angle at address can be thought of as a built in left wrist pre-cock, and has no bearing on where the release point is.
Remember the difference between setting the hands low at address (usually means a cocked left wrist) and placing the grip under the heel pad (i.e. true Accumulator #3 at at Impact). Everything else equal, the former doesn't affect Release Point, whereas the latter does.

Happy incubating Joe!
 
quote:Originally posted by tongzilla

When golfers have low hands at Address, it is almost always because their Left Wrist is Cocked, not because the grip is very far under the heel pad. As per my previous post, this means even though the hands are going to be much higher at Impact (because Left Wrist is Level), it doesn't mean more Accumulator #3 will be used through Impact!

Remember the difference between setting the hands low at address (usually means a cocked left wrist) and placing the grip under the heel pad (i.e. true Accumulator #3 at at Impact). Everything else equal, the former doesn't affect Release Point, whereas the latter does.

Accum #3 is the angle between the left forearm and the shaft and is independent of grip type. So it makes no sense to speak of "true" Accum #3. And, moreover, with all "normal" grips, the handle is under the heel pad - only one serious golfer I've ever seen puts the butt of the club in the cup of the left hand, and I venture to say that no such grip has ever been seen on any of the professional tours, except for Moe Norman.

I also believe that underneath your confusion is perhaps a belief that with a normal grip, Accum #3 cannot be zeroed out - but it can indeed.

Further your statement that the left wrist is level at impact is just not necessarily true - Notah Begay goes through impact with low hands(left wrist cocked) with the #3 angle almost very close to that at address with low hands and a normal grip. Same with Zach Johnson today at this week's tour event. You must understand that sometimes when Homer says something must be, he really means it's recommended, but not mandatory.

So, whatever the #3 Accum angle at address, release point is wherever the player wants it to be and he can use whatever amount of #3 he wishes in uncocking, from none of it, and up to and including all of it.
 

Brian Manzella

Administrator
Great posts. Joe.

Here is my attempt tp simplify:

• The #3 Accumulator Angle is NOT set (for through the ball use) at address. Mac O'Grady sets up with a bunch and has very little at impact. So does Ryan Moore.

• Golfers with a level left wrist at impact have SNAP releases sometimes (Mike Finney, Ben Hogan).

* Golfers with LESS #3 angle at impact, sometime have SWEEP releases (Tom Watson).

Here is Ben Hogan:
numberthree.jpg

numbertwo.jpg
 
Joe, now you’re saying the Left Wrist doesn't have to be Level at Impact. Ok, you got me there!! Yes, of course it doesn't have to be, but 9/10 great players do have their Left Wrist Level at Impact (for a good reason too!). Which means the amount of Accumulator #3 at Impact does depend on how far down the heel pad the club is placed (this is not a classification of Grip Type Joe).

And there is no confusion on my part here. With a normal grip, Accumulator #3 can only be zeroed on when Vertical Hinging is used. Why? Because the Clubhead cannot “overtake” the Hands.

We are going around in circles, so to simplify things please answer this question: everything else being equal, if you grip the club more under the heel pad (i.e. bigger Accumulator #3 angle at Impact with a Level Left Wrist), you will get an earlier release and hence a bigger pulley. Do you agree? Yes or no…
 
quote:Originally posted by brianman

Great posts. Joe.

Here is my attempt tp simplify:

• The #3 Accumulator Angle is NOT set (for through the ball use) at address. Mac O'Grady sets up with a bunch and has very little at impact. So does Ryan Moore.

• Golfers with a level left wrist at impact have SNAP releases sometimes (Mike Finney, Ben Hogan).

* Golfers with LESS #3 angle at impact, sometime have SWEEP releases (Tom Watson).

Here is Ben Hogan:
numberthree.jpg

numbertwo.jpg

Great Hogan pics - I've never seen these before.

I agree with your statements. The most important part is your use of the word sometimes. ;)
 
quote:Originally posted by tongzilla



With a normal grip, Accumulator #3 can only be zeroed on when Vertical Hinging is used. Why? Because the Clubhead cannot “overtake” the Hands.

I can zero out #3 with a fully bent right wrist and arched left wrist, which prevents the clubhead from overtaking the hands, while using both horiz and angled hinging.
 
quote:Originally posted by tongzilla


We are going around in circles, so to simplify things please answer this question: everything else being equal, if you grip the club more under the heel pad (i.e. bigger Accumulator #3 angle at Impact with a Level Left Wrist), you will get an earlier release and hence a bigger pulley. Do you agree? Yes or no…

I don't understand what you mean by "grip the club more under the heel pad". I do agree that with a level left wrist that there will be more #3 with a normal grip than with a Moe Norman grip. I absolutely don't agree that the grip dictates where the release happens.
 
quote:Originally posted by MizunoJoe

quote:Originally posted by tongzilla


We are going around in circles, so to simplify things please answer this question: everything else being equal, if you grip the club more under the heel pad (i.e. bigger Accumulator #3 angle at Impact with a Level Left Wrist), you will get an earlier release and hence a bigger pulley. Do you agree? Yes or no…

I don't understand what you mean by "grip the club more under the heel pad". I do agree that with a level left wrist that there will be more #3 with a normal grip than with a Moe Norman grip. I absolutely don't agree that the grip dictates where the release happens.

Brian's grip article has a photo showing where the heel pad is: http://homepage.mac.com/brianmanzella/.Public/bmanzellasept03.pdf

If the club is placed in the thumb pad, the the Left Arm and Clubshaft forms a straight line when the Left Wrist is Level. If the club is placed in the heel pad, there will be an angle between the Left Arm and Clubshaft. This angle may be increased by placing the grip more under the heel pad.

So I repeat my multiple choice question:
Everything else being equal</u>, if you grip the club more under the heel pad (i.e. bigger Accumulator #3 angle at Impact with a Level Left Wrist), you will get an earlier Release and hence a bigger pulley.
Do you agree?
Yes or</u> no.
 
quote:Originally posted by tongzilla



So I repeat my multiple choice question:
Everything else being equal</u>, if you grip the club more under the heel pad (i.e. bigger Accumulator #3 angle at Impact with a Level Left Wrist), you will get an earlier Release and hence a bigger pulley.
Do you agree?
Yes or</u> no.


I've already answered above, but will repeat, the amount of #3 has NO bearing on release point. NONE.
 
Since I am new to TGM could someone explain the difference between the #2 and #3 accumlator angles as shown in the pictures Brian posted. To me it seems that they are the same thing. In the face-on picture it is the angle betwenn the left arm and the clubshaft(#2) then in the down the line picture the left arm and hand have rotated 90 degrees and it is still the angle beteen the left arm and the shaft(#3). What am I missing?
 
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