English Turn Visit (now with a Manzella blog story on page 2)

[grizzly30]

Brian,
Thanks for the golf lessons at English turn two weeks ago. The swing thoughts and drills are really helping out. ...I have all your videos, and they are great...but nothing beats getting a lesson customized, based on what my issues are

I just have to keep ingraining the new swing thoughts,....it is AMAZING how a few simple drills can transform my ball flight

I look forward to seeing you in a few months, after I have had time work on my swing....I spent several days playing and practicing last week, and I had stretches of great ball striking( at least great for me).



Randy

 

[SteveT]

You are indeed a fortunate golfer, but remember that it takes at least 120 days to start laying in the neuro-muscular pathways before you can feel confident with your new golfswing to perform automatically and consistently. Even the pro's bodies are limited by this physiological truth. Practice hard... practice smart... make Brian proud of you.

 

[ZAP]

So he has to wait 120 days to feel confident? Even if the new move requires less coordination and timing than the old?

 

[SteveT]

So he has to wait 120 days to feel confident? Even if the new move requires less coordination and timing than the old?

I refer you to grizzly30's posting where he/she says: "I just have to keep ingraining the new swing thoughts,.......I look forward to seeing you in a few months, after I have had time work on my swing.."

You just can't erase the original neuro-muscular patterns no matter how complex with moves that require less coordination and timing. That's not how the body works physiologically.

The old patterns persist and emerge under stressful situations to sabotage the fledgling new simple moves. That's why pro golfers are so methodical in changing their golfswings; they know it takes time to incorporate new moves no matter how simple they may be.

Instant magic moves only exist in golfer's imaginations, while their old golfswing patterns continue to lurk in their deep subconscious.

 

[ZAP]

Ok now I see the angle you were taking. I read that totally different.

 

[BrendanC]

120 days? Neuro-muscular pathways? Can you back any of this stuff up.

I think the right information at the right time can produce very quick results.

A golfer usually (though not always) gets better as he grows his knowledge of himself and his swing. Harvey Penick described the typical change well - golfers plateau and then suddenly improve by 5 shots.

Logically, there can be a delay between a golfswing improving and the score improving: you have to adjust aim, get used to new ballflight and yardages etc.

 

[welshdentist]

120 days? Neuro-muscular pathways? Can you back any of this stuff up.

I think the right information at the right time can produce very quick results.

A golfer usually (though not always) gets better as he grows his knowledge of himself and his swing. Harvey Penick described the typical change well - golfers plateau and then suddenly improve by 5 shots.

Logically, there can be a delay between a golfswing improving and the score improving: you have to adjust aim, get used to new ballflight and yardages etc.

Stuff like The Talent Code, Bounce....

Lot's of the web/academia talks of myelination and laying down of neural pattern for learning. It's not that you can't change instantly, but if you want to REPEAT the change....better learn HOW to LEARN....

Unless you work at it the right way, the right information can be lost.....

Karl Morris talks of working on one thing at a time per session.

A lesson in learning

Interesting read, I used to work on a lot of things in a session until reading this.

 

[BrendanC]

Welshdentist - I have followed these debates and am very sceptical about how some people use this information.

This article is symptomatic of a common problem.

He treats all mechanical info as though it were equal. That is not the case. (I actually like Karl Morris' stuff, Bob Rotella is the worst offender).

Quoting Karl Morris: "You may believe in a certain ‘method', be that the ‘One Plane' or ‘Two Plane' swing or the ‘Golf Machine'. And all of that is just fine because I am not here to tell you what to do in your golf swing. I am going to leave that to the professionals who are better qualified than I am. But what I am going to do is ask you to think about the way in which you learn – and isn't it remarkable that so little has been written on that subject?"

 

[wulsy]

A typical KM quote: devoid of information. DEVOID.

 

[TeeAce]

120 days? Neuro-muscular pathways? Can you back any of this stuff up.

I think the right information at the right time can produce very quick results.

A golfer usually (though not always) gets better as he grows his knowledge of himself and his swing. Harvey Penick described the typical change well - golfers plateau and then suddenly improve by 5 shots.

Logically, there can be a delay between a golfswing improving and the score improving: you have to adjust aim, get used to new ballflight and yardages etc.

Think that so that there is electric cables going from brain to the different muscles and different parts of those. Those cables get thicker all the time they are used and start to get thinner if not used. The action is dependent of how much energy the muscle gets via that cable.

When learning new moves, someone has to first install those cables, but they are very thin when installed. They are there, but not much going through them. The old cable is still there and the biggest part of impulse is still going via old cable. When practicing player pushes the electricity to the new one and it starts to grow and the old one getting smaller. That process takes time and that change also happens all the time when started. It happens while sleeping, eating, training... what ever you do when you often enough give that impulse there.

That's why it's not only dependent how much you practice, but time, days, weeks have their own effect to get that electricity running on the right track. Water in the river can't be forced any quicker by helping it by hand.

 

[wulsy]

Nice one Teesy.

 

[BrendanC]

I do not believe that the a golf swing gradually 'accrues' through repetition.

It can get much better and much worse from day to day, and changes instantly when new motions are added or removed.

Regarding Bounce and The Talent Code, I think that to become a top class professional, you do not only need 10,000 hours of practice. You need 10,000 hours of practice with near perfect technique for the vast majority of those 10,000 hours.

You don't suddenly become good at the end of 10,000 hours. A golf swing is not something that 'accrues' over time.

 

[wulsy]

Brendan, if that's the case why do you need the 10,000 hours?

 

[BrendanC]

I will put it like this: I think you need a substantial part of the 10,000 hours to became an expert at using perfect technique. The 10,000 hours is not a discovery process.

Take a violinist:

Step 1: he is taught the right positions and techniques
Step 2: He practices these, becoming more fluent, natural and stylish.
Step 3: Depending on whether he practices his good technique for 3,000, 6,000 or 10,000 hours, he becomes a player of a certain calibre. There is a relationship between the number of hours practice, and his ability.

For golfers, it is not a given that Step 1 will ever happen.

 

[grizzly30]

Steve,
yes I am fortunate to have been able to spend time with Brian. He is very knowledgeable, and just as important, he is Excellent at conveying the information, he is able to get his information across simply, he comes up with good analogies to help get the point to stay with you.
The thing is, there were only a few Drills and swing thoughts that he left me with... I agree with you that a few months might not be enough time to get them fully automatic, the idea is that we would use the next meeting( maybe at a tour stop), to see how I have been progressing, to make sure i am not deviating, and to see what else we can incorporate.

The great thing was that I was able to ask questions about the hows and whys, specifically when we did not get the desired result, so I was able to get an better understanding of what I did wrong when I produced a certain undesired shot...why did I hit a particular shot fat, why did that leak to the right...etc...there was a pattern of things that would creep up....Brian was Great as explaining things...so as I am working on the few drill, I can better diagnose myself if(when) things get a bit off....I already noticed this over the last week, and I was practicing on the range, and playing a few practice round...when I hit an off shot, I had a better idea of why...just like I had a better Idea of what adjustments to make to hit a particular shot

now I just have to keep working on it....and working on it....and working on it

by the way, having trackman during the lesson is great...especially in the hands of someone like Brian, that really know what he is doing...it is not just that Brian understands the golf swing...he has a great understanding of golf in general

we did a playing lesson, so he could see all aspect of my game, so we worked on full swing, and short game, course management....it was a great time...he is a Funny guy

The English Turn members don't know how good they have it

 

[Erik_K]

Stuff like The Talent Code, Bounce....

Lot's of the web/academia talks of myelination and laying down of neural pattern for learning. It's not that you can't change instantly, but if you want to REPEAT the change....better learn HOW to LEARN....

Unless you work at it the right way, the right information can be lost.....

Karl Morris talks of working on one thing at a time per session.

A lesson in learning

Interesting read, I used to work on a lot of things in a session until reading this.

I actually liked this article - a rather interesting approach in that the student should perhaps focus on ball flight vs rigid mechanical movements. How many times at a lesson did you here, "Don't worry about where the ball goes..."

Erik

 

[Brian Manzella]

Thanks Griz!!

.......


Some of you folks who have been around here since the beginning may remember this story....but here it is again:


I was a football player my whole young life, playing golf on the weekends since I was 10, except much less than that during football season.

I had little trouble learning to get the ball airborne or hitting the ball solidly, but at 11 years old I was hitting it a bit too much left-to-right, so my Dad bought me a lesson.

"Just make half swings," said the old pro.

Neither me or my dad were happy with the lesson, so it was back to hitting wiffle balls in the back yard on my own for practice.

At 12 I finally broke 50 for 9 holes from the men's tees on the front nine of the City Park West Course. My previous low had been 54, but that day I came to #8, a 165 yard par 3 needing two pars for a 39. A double and a triple later, I had my 45.

At 13 I broke 80 on the even harder East course.

At 14 I was the #2 man on my varsity high school golf team. At 15 I took a lesson from a former PGA Tour player. He had me put my right forearm under my left. After one or two good holes it didn't work for me at all.

Later that year, with my right arm high, I shot 67 on a course I never shot that low on again the rest of my life.

That winter I took took two lessons from a former national assistant's champion. He didn't tell me much.

At 17, ready for my last year of high school golf and trying to decide if I was a golfer or a footballer, I got a case of the slices. I took a lesson from the local guru and he made me swing easier, but never said a thing about my slice except, "Try to hit it as far to the left as you can."

So at 17, I knew I'd have to get a little more help from my 6 handicapper Dad, and figure golf out for myself.

I shot 77 my last round of high school golf. Okie State was not interested if you know what I mean.

So, I attempted to turn myself into a Lee Trevino clone. I found his book in the library, and started to fade every shot, even chips.

It taught me something—golf pros "write" terrible books in general. But I started to read more of them.

I didn't try out for the college team that fall, and was pretty much shooting between 76 and 83 every round. No better than when I was 15, except I didn't have any really good rounds.

I got a job picking up balls at the Driving Range and hit 300 balls every day and played 18 holes 6 times a week.

One day, I was hanging around in the golf shop with a 27 year lot mini-tour player and the former assistant's champ. They asked me what I was going do with my life. "I am going to try to play golf." I replied, "Now that I can play year round, I think I can get pretty good."

"You will never be any good," they retorted with supreme confidence. "If you aren't any good at 17, you will never be any good."

"Really," I responded quizzically, "Larry Nelson started playing at 21."

I kept at it, now about one year into my full-time golfing. I was playing with good players, and could see where I was. I wasn't there.

One day, hitting balls at the range, the cashier, an old pro named Alvin Jewell, banged loudly on the big window from his stall to get my attention.

"Schwing dem orms!!!" he exclaimed, making wild arm-swinging movements.

After another failed attempt by me, he exaggerated the demonstration.

I hit a really nice high draw. He nodded.

The next day, I putted poorly and shot 2-over.

I never was anything worse than a scratch player again.

Really.

I made two college teams in the next couple of years, finally getting a scholarship and playing #1-#3 and captaining the team my senior year.

Take that learning experts.

Oh yeah, I even became a golf pro.

Thanks Mr. Al. The man, who by-the-way, never gave me a regular lesson, or ANY OTHER TIP MY WHOLE LIFE.

But here I am.

 

[wulsy]

I went from a better than scratch golfer to a TOTAL HACKER (the only reason I could still break 80 was because I had been playing all my life) on the following advice:

Don't sway and set the wrists early a la Leady-B. (Writing that made me feel sick.)

Ideas can ruin golfers. But I genuinely believe it take MORE than an idea to make one.

It took me 10 years to get back to where I was and, frankly, I'm not back to where I was in some respects. The mind is a powerful thing. But having said that, I really can't stand golf mental trainers. They are sooo full of sheet.

 

[magicmarker]

great post Bmanz

just one thing, if you needed two pars for a 39....a double and a triple later should have carded you a 44

 

[Matt Bryda]

while their old golfswing patterns continue to lurk in their deep subconscious.

With the right (intention) it's easier to change your self concept, to believe you will hit better shots.