Face Angle Control & Timing (now with a Manzella video)

[Kevin Shields]

Thanks from an interested bystander.

I've been trying to do this for some time now but it seems to be at complete odds with what the club HEAD wants to do, ie rotate/close. Any ideas why this seems so "contra-physics"?

You may be starting the squaring late. If it squares up earlier, the left wrist will just want to bend. But I know what you're saying about the roll

 

[dschultz6072]

You can add that roll in to intentionally hook it, right? And fight this roll to slice it? This is how I'm working the ball lately.

 

[wulsy]

You may be starting the squaring late. If it squares up earlier, the left wrist will just want to bend. But I know what you're saying about the roll

Thanks.

I think it is maybe a little too "open" because I hit so late (mega lag) and I have to close the face down to get it closed enough to avoid hitting it right. Then, of course, I'm staring hooksville in the face.

Agree?

 

[ekennedy]

You may be starting the squaring late. If it squares up earlier, the left wrist will just want to bend. But I know what you're saying about the roll

Is it safe to say that once you start your downswing with a tug of the left shoulder, you start pulling the handle and most good players realize that their only chance to square up the face at that point is to continue pulling, leading to big helicopter finishes, blocks and eventually a rolled left wrist?

 

[TeeAce]

Is it safe to say that once you start your downswing with a tug of the left shoulder, you start pulling the handle and most good players realize that their only chance to square up the face at that point is to continue pulling, leading to big helicopter finishes, blocks and eventually a rolled left wrist?

I think yes.

 

[Kevin Shields]

Thanks.

I think it is maybe a little too "open" because I hit so late (mega lag) and I have to close the face down to get it closed enough to avoid hitting it right. Then, of course, I'm staring hooksville in the face.

Agree?

10000% agree

 

[Kevin Shields]

Is it safe to say that once you start your downswing with a tug of the left shoulder, you start pulling the handle and most good players realize that their only chance to square up the face at that point is to continue pulling, leading to big helicopter finishes, blocks and eventually a rolled left wrist?

The late helicopter finish is almost always a way to know if there's something wrong

 

[Kevin Shields]

Is it safe to say that once you start your downswing with a tug of the left shoulder, you start pulling the handle and most good players realize that their only chance to square up the face at that point is to continue pulling, leading to big helicopter finishes, blocks and eventually a rolled left wrist?

Ekennedy,

Of all the people that teachers would say have "throwaway" or the so called early release, how many have you seen that don't start with a tug of the shoulders or a "keep the hands at the same height" outward move toward the ball. In other words, have you ever in your life seen a golfer make an ample turn and immediately put a down and out force on the clubhead to the point where it reached impact before anything else. Close the gap from club head to ball with no tug?

 

[ekennedy]

Ekennedy,

Of all the people that teachers would say have "throwaway" or the so called early release, how many have you seen that don't start with a tug of the shoulders or a "keep the hands at the same height" outward move toward the ball. In other words, have you ever in your life seen a golfer make an ample turn and immediately put a down and out force on the clubhead to the point where it reached impact before anything else. Close the gap from club head to ball with no tug?

I'm sure its physically possible, but I've not seen it. You rarely see "throwaway" with a full turn unless its so stretched they have no choice but to pull. Getting a good player to feel "alligator arms" at the top is not something they would normally try as most players equate width in the BS to power.

 

[Todd Dugan]

I consistently had a Trackman reading last night of less than one for my club path. However, my face angle readings were consistenlty around -4* closed. Thus, I would hit drivers 30-40 yards left (108 clubhead speed, 160 ballspeed, 3000 spin rate, 13 * vertical launch).

How does one best control the face angle or is this just "timing" in a golf swing? I can "time" my clubpath on Trackman pretty consistently and keep it under one (whether in to out or out to in).

I have no problem aiming 30 yards right because I'm very consistent with my numbers. I also knew never to aim at the target with my swing because the ball would always curve left so much.

I know you can't see my swing, but my club is 1/4 closed at the top (or less). Just wondering about controlling clubface in general.

Have you tried rolling the clubface open the full 90*, parallel to the swing plane at the top?

 

[cwdlaw223]

Have you tried rolling the clubface open the full 90*, parallel to the swing plane at the top?

Yes and I'll close the face even more on the downswing with such a move.

 

[mgranato]

For whatever reason (I'm sure it's something I'd read in a magazine when starting), I've always loved/used a weak grip. Down arching and "trick" shots were all I had. It's a shot-to-shot struggle with my inner hacker to keep my grip strong enough. Ridding myself of the roll is a booger, and I'm discovering I've got little chance from a weak grip.

 

[ZAP]

The first few shots I tried after watching the ideas video went WAY right.(remember I am left handed) Just before I panicked I remembered that position Brian described after impact did not include any roll.

 

[bryan@nobackswing.com]

big thanks for that video. explains a lot.

 

[Todd Dugan]

Yes and I'll close the face even more on the downswing with such a move.

Yeah, that can happen. But not if you roll it open enough. It was Hogan's "secret" hook cure. If you don't go that route, then you must release with less roll. A good drill is to hold the club out in front of you on a horizontal plane with the clubface vertical. Keep the hands in place and hinge the shaft back in-plane with some roll. Note the clubface position relative to the ground. It should be tilted well to the right of vertical. Now unhinge the shaft back to the starting position, maintaining the same clubface tilt. That's a "no roll" release. But remember, "feel" and "real" are two different things.

 

[DCgolf]

If opening the club face going back, or at the top, is the goal, it cannot be done flat; if you have maximum roll, and swing your arms and club very low behind you, the club face is actually closed. Reason is that the left arm arm stays on top, right elbow folds in and left wrist flattens to the max. Now simply lift that position to the top and the face will be looking straight up. Dead shut. ANY opening of the face going back must done with an UP swing of the arms. Now if you roll the arms and swing up, the left wrist will cup and you'll get mega open. It a plane thing not a roll thing...

 

[Virtuoso]

Ekennedy,

Of all the people that teachers would say have "throwaway" or the so called early release, how many have you seen that don't start with a tug of the shoulders or a "keep the hands at the same height" outward move toward the ball. In other words, have you ever in your life seen a golfer make an ample turn and immediately put a down and out force on the clubhead to the point where it reached impact before anything else. Close the gap from club head to ball with no tug?

Yes, I 've seen it twice!......in about 7000 golfers. One of them joined the circus.

 

[cwdlaw223]

If opening the club face going back, or at the top, is the goal, it cannot be done flat; if you have maximum roll, and swing your arms and club very low behind you, the club face is actually closed. Reason is that the left arm arm stays on top, right elbow folds in and left wrist flattens to the max. Now simply lift that position to the top and the face will be looking straight up. Dead shut. ANY opening of the face going back must done with an UP swing of the arms. Now if you roll the arms and swing up, the left wrist will cup and you'll get mega open. It a plane thing not a roll thing...

I agree with you. I can get that club WAY open at the top by cupping my left wrist. In fact, I have a little cup (feels more powerful). Just rolling the clubface open "enough" in the backswing isn't a viable solution.

 

[Todd Dugan]

If opening the club face going back, or at the top, is the goal, it cannot be done flat; if you have maximum roll, and swing your arms and club very low behind you, the club face is actually closed. Reason is that the left arm arm stays on top, right elbow folds in and left wrist flattens to the max. Now simply lift that position to the top and the face will be looking straight up. Dead shut. ANY opening of the face going back must done with an UP swing of the arms. Now if you roll the arms and swing up, the left wrist will cup and you'll get mega open. It a plane thing not a roll thing...

With respect to human biomechanics, this is false. Hogan had a flat left arm plane and rolled the clubface open more than 90*.