Fitting question - lie angles

[birly-shirly]

There's a school of thought that says that toe hits are a sign that your irons should be fitted more upright, and vice versa for heel hits.

Obviously, this is a somewhat different procedure from either a lie board test, or "the sharpie test" of drawing a vertical line on the ball and seeing whether it leaves an imprint other than perpendicular to the scorelines on the face.

Thoughts please on whether the first method is

(a) valid;

(b) takes precedence over lie board or sharpie test feedback; and

(c) if it works, why does it work? I'm not that clear on why you would tend to hit a flatter angled club more towards the toe.

Thanks

 

[Frans@France]

There's a school of thought that says that toe hits are a sign that your irons should be fitted more upright, and vice versa for heel hits................

I have never heard that amongst clubfitters! The school of thought says that if you miss the sweetspot then either length / SW or MOI are not correct.

However bending the Lie will move the cog and with that also the place where you want to hit it...

 

[Todd Dugan]

Clubfitters who can't teach are always looking to blame the club for a players' failings. Bottom line is that the responsibility of striking the ball with the sweet spot lies chiefly with the player. There are much better reasons to adjust lie angle.

 

[birly-shirly]

Thanks guys - I've been thinking about this, and I do have one idea as to how, theoretically, this might make sense. However, I'd like to hang fire just now to see whether anyone with practical experience of using the method chimes in.

Meantime - Todd, how would you teach someone to hit the sweetspot?

 

[Frans@France]

Clubfitters who can't teach are always looking to blame the club for a players' failings.

Nope, they blame the teacher

 

[magicmarker]

There's a school of thought that says that toe hits are a sign that your irons should be fitted more upright, and vice versa for heel hits.

Thoughts please on whether the first method is

(a) valid;

(b) takes precedence over lie board or sharpie test feedback; and

(c) if it works, why does it work? I'm not that clear on why you would tend to hit a flatter angled club more towards the toe.

Thanks

cannot speak to the validity of it but I do get it.

how are you supposed to hit the ball on the heel if the club is too flat, that would require the toe being deep under the ball.

same goes for too upright, hard to catch it with the toe because that means the heel is in the ground somewhere.

So you adjust the swing to make contact with the lowest portion of the clubhead.

 

[birly-shirly]

If someone is hitting the ball consistently out of the toe, would it make sense to extend the length of their irons?

 

[dschultz6072]

Stand a little closer to the ball? Are you backing up off the shot at all?

 

[Todd Dugan]

Thanks guys - I've been thinking about this, and I do have one idea as to how, theoretically, this might make sense. However, I'd like to hang fire just now to see whether anyone with practical experience of using the method chimes in.

Meantime - Todd, how would you teach someone to hit the sweetspot?

That's kind of like asking "How do you get someone to hit the ball better". There's no single answer. The best instruction is customized for the individual.

 

[puttmaster]

If someone is hitting the ball consistently out of the toe, would it make sense to extend the length of their irons?

YMMV, but, my fitter says just the opposite is often the case. That if the club is too long/upright, the player will instinctively rise up in order to not stick the club in the ground -- and thus strike the clubface toward the toe. My new irons are 1/2" shorter than standard -- and no more toe hits for me.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

Just bought a wedge, tested it in the store and for the life of me couldn't hit it anywhere but in the heel. Asked them to bend it 2* flat as that is what my normal lie angle is, magically it's in the center of the face.

Now is fitting 4* upright lie angles for a golfer with a bad swing who is using lie angle to hit it in the center of the face a bad idea? Yes. However if you aren't that guy above and don't have the right lie angle to help you hit it where you need it, you will always be facing an uphill battle with your golf swing.

Make your equipment fit you not the other way around.

 

[birly-shirly]

That's kind of like asking "How do you get someone to hit the ball better". There's no single answer. The best instruction is customized for the individual.

Not at all. This thread presupposes a consistent miss to either the heel or the toe.

So the equivalent question would be "how do you teach someone whose primary problem is consistently hitting it out of the toe [ or the heel]"

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

Not at all. This thread presupposes a consistent miss to either the heel or the toe.

So the equivalent question would be "how do you teach someone whose primary problem is consistently hitting it out of the toe [ or the heel]"

have to determine if it is a true fitting issue or a swing issue.

 

[Todd Dugan]

Not at all. This thread presupposes a consistent miss to either the heel or the toe.

So the equivalent question would be "how do you teach someone whose primary problem is consistently hitting it out of the toe [ or the heel]"

The question was "How do you teach someone to hit the sweetspot?". Now to this more specific question, again, there is no one single cause of chronic toe or heel hits. So, the root cause of the problem must be identified first. I will offer some general points. For chronic heel hits, simply moving farther from the ball at address often times is enough. If not, the player's weight is usually too far towards the toe of the front foot past impact. For chronic toe hits, rarely is the trail arm straightening past impact, as all great strikers do. In no way does this cover all scenarios, but these are common. I use on-mark chalk spray all the time to test.

 

[Virtuoso]

Post #63

Golf Club Fitting in Layman's Terms Part 1

http://www.brianmanzella.com/golfing-discussions/17376-little-levity-7.html

 

[birly-shirly]

Virtuoso - I know, everything sounds absurd once you hear Curly saying it.

Then again, I took some impact tape and a couple of wedges of the same shaft length to the range tonight - but one bent 1* up, the other 1* flat.

Absolutely not a blind test - but my results seemed to mirror Jim's experience. Not a cure all by any means - but then Curly, despite the accent, doesn't work anywhere near me!

 

[Virtuoso]

Virtuoso - I know, everything sounds absurd once you hear Curly saying it.

Then again, I took some impact tape and a couple of wedges of the same shaft length to the range tonight - but one bent 1* up, the other 1* flat.

Absolutely not a blind test - but my results seemed to mirror Jim's experience. Not a cure all by any means - but then Curly, despite the accent, doesn't work anywhere near me!

Hey Birly,

I don't feel strongly one way or the other about a correlation between lie angle and impact location. I've seen lie angle adjustments help people hit it more solid sometimes--I'm just not sure about causation. It is certainly something to consider as long as it is in harmony with other lie angle/length considerations.

Where Curly went completely off the rails was that the club was entirely too long and dynamically upright to begin with, especially considering Sammy is short in stature, flat and super inside with his path angle. The heel is goudging into the ground as he drop kicks the ball. Curly ignored this and proceeded forward based solely on hit location, so he used a concept that might work to the detriment of a situation that was already clearly not working.

....but, I don't totally disagree all the time with my anti-hero's, nor do I completely agree with the hero's; I'm not making fun of the concepts as much as I'm making fun of all of us in this crazy game. I used to be Ronny and Curly combined.

 

[art]

There's a school of thought that says that toe hits are a sign that your irons should be fitted more upright, and vice versa for heel hits.

Obviously, this is a somewhat different procedure from either a lie board test, or "the sharpie test" of drawing a vertical line on the ball and seeing whether it leaves an imprint other than perpendicular to the scorelines on the face.

Thoughts please on whether the first method is

(a) valid;

(b) takes precedence over lie board or sharpie test feedback; and

(c) if it works, why does it work? I'm not that clear on why you would tend to hit a flatter angled club more towards the toe.

Thanks

Wow, birly-shirly,

Seventeen posts, as of this, and NOT ONE WORD about the possibility of one's losing their lower body dynamic balance, and then CONSISTENTLY RE-FLEXING by trying to re-establish it during the CRUCIAL dynamic periods of the transition and downswing.

I would be flattered if for some, BBKIB were even REDUCED to a test for toe hits BEFORE any more is spent on adjustments, or new clubs.

Just a thought.

Regards,
art

 

[birly-shirly]

Hey Birly,

I don't feel strongly one way or the other about a correlation between lie angle and impact location. I've seen lie angle adjustments help people hit it more solid sometimes--I'm just not sure about causation. It is certainly something to consider as long as it is in harmony with other lie angle/length considerations.

Where Curly went completely off the rails was that the club was entirely too long and dynamically upright to begin with, especially considering Sammy is short in stature, flat and super inside with his path angle. The heel is goudging into the ground as he drop kicks the ball. Curly ignored this and proceeded forward based solely on hit location, so he used a concept that might work to the detriment of a situation that was already clearly not working.

....but, I don't totally disagree all the time with my anti-hero's, nor do I completely agree with the hero's; I'm not making fun of the concepts as much as I'm making fun of all of us in this crazy game. I used to be Ronny and Curly combined.

I love that we even get the backstory!

I agree completely that we're talking about factors, and not cure-alls. I guess a lot of the absurdity is in the idea that we can take 1 factor in isolation and turn things around. Something that I'm sure we've all been guilty off too many times.

 

[birly-shirly]

Wow, birly-shirly,

Seventeen posts, as of this, and NOT ONE WORD about the possibility of one's losing their lower body dynamic balance, and then CONSISTENTLY RE-FLEXING by trying to re-establish it during the CRUCIAL dynamic periods of the transition and downswing.

I would be flattered if for some, BBKIB were even REDUCED to a test for toe hits BEFORE any more is spent on adjustments, or new clubs.

Just a thought.

Regards,
art

Hi Art - I'm sure you're basically right. At least as far as I'm concerned, this discussion is limited to situations where you've already isolated a fitting issue. That, in my mind, presupposes some level of confidence that the real issue isn't the swing.