ej: I have never said that you cant play good golf with shifts. Again, Furyk is on plane where it matters, also how long did Furyk stick with these changes, was he willing to put a year or two into moving to a simpler motion? . My only point being is a zero shift is the preferred option. From what I can see, outside of TGM there are very few teachers that understand plane and plane shifts, let alone ones who know the benefits of zero shift or how to teach it.
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Densikat,what exactly is a zero shift swing?Are there any pros that you can use as an example?
The conventional view is that a flattening of the shaft on the downswing produces a shallow inside attack on the ball.There will be a wider flat spot through the impact area which will result in a more forgiving way to hit the ball.The less you flatten,the more steeper the angle of approach and a much narrower flat spot.Fat and thin shots are more likely.You will also need to focus on hitting the inside quadrant of the ball to prevent swinging too far left.
Perhaps TGM has a different view on this?My mind is always open.
The conventional view is that a flattening of the shaft on the downswing produces a shallow inside attack on the ball.There will be a wider flat spot through the impact area which will result in a more forgiving way to hit the ball.The less you flatten,the more steeper the angle of approach and a much narrower flat spot.Fat and thin shots are more likely.You will also need to focus on hitting the inside quadrant of the ball to prevent swinging too far left.
Perhaps TGM has a different view on this?My mind is always open.
rwh
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The swing occurs on an Inclined Plane. In The Golfing Machine the "Plane Angle" is a reference point on which the Inclined Plane can be set.
A "Zero" Shift means that the swing stays on one plane only throuhgout the stroke and does not shift to any other plane(s).
The Golfing Machine model for an uncompensated stroke for Hitters and Swingers is Zero Shift. Mr. Kelley wrote that "any Plane Angle Shift is hazardous", which is what Denny was saying
The recommened Plane Angle is the "Turned Shoulder" Plane. This means that you mentally lean your Inclined Plane on the point where the Top of Right Shoulder is at the conclusion of your Shoulder Turn** and you then swing up and down that Plane throughout the stroke.
** To see this Shoulder Turn, go to the video of Holenone/Yoda at the RIGHT SHOULDER ON FORWARD SWING thread.
rwh:are you talking about the shoulder plane or the plane of the club?From what i understand,it's impossible to swing the club on a single plane throughout the stroke.The arms won't allow it.Maybe you feel like you do but pictures don't lie.Plane shifts are built into the swing..it's just a matter of how great they are.
rwh
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It is possible to swing the club on a single plane throughout the stroke, but you have to use a set up that will accomodate it.
You set up with your Right Forearm on the selected Inclined Plane Angle -- say, the Turned Shoulder Plane from the previous post. The Clubshaft is on the same Plane as your Forearm; therefore, since your Forearm is on Plane, so is your club. YOu take the hands and right forearm up the Plane to the Top. The relationship of the Clubshaft and Right Forearm hasn't changed, so the Hands, Right Forearm, Clubshaft and, now, the Right Shoulder, are all on the same Plane. And Down The Plane They Come!
Again, you do not have to use a Zero Shift; that is your choice. But it is possible. And, per Mr. Kelley, less hazardous to your golfing health.
ForeverNewbie
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Hi:
Isn't the right forearm on its own flatter plane than the turned shoulder plane, called the elbow plane? In order for the right forearm to be on the turned shoulder plane, I would have to chicken wing the right forearm. Both the right shoulder and right forearm point at the plane line on the downswing, but at different angles, like a wedge. So it seems to me.
Bye
Isn't the right forearm on its own flatter plane than the turned shoulder plane, called the elbow plane? In order for the right forearm to be on the turned shoulder plane, I would have to chicken wing the right forearm. Both the right shoulder and right forearm point at the plane line on the downswing, but at different angles, like a wedge. So it seems to me.
Bye
rwh
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Yes, as in 10-6-B #1.
"Way up" is relative, but I beleive you will find that most Tour players swing somewhere the Elbow Plane and the Turned Shoulder Plane -- with or without shifts. It is important to note that the Turned Shoulder Plane of 10-6-B requires the Flat Backstroke Shoulder Turn of 10-13-B -- the Shoulder Turn demonstrated by Yoda in the clip referenced earlier in this Thread. I don't think the Right Arm is straight at address, but it obviously appears "straighter" as the Plane Angles get steeper. The Big Deal is that the (Magical) Right Forearm is on-plane at address [note: the Forearm is not on the Hands Plane].
Is it absolutely necessary that the Clubshaft lie on the Turned Shoulder Plane Angle at Address? No. Chuck Evans states that you can just take your hands up the Plane Angle. So, you have choices. It seems to me that putting that Right Forearm on-plane at address and taking it up the plane and down the plane is the easisest way.
rwh
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There is a nice photo of Peter Jacobson on Brady Riggs' excellent website:
http://redgoat.smugmug.com/gallery/102519/1/3788046
The photo has a yellow line showing the clubshaft angle at Address and a red line showing the clubshaft angle at Impact. The redline is on the Turned Shoulder Plane. You could start with the Clubshaft on that (red line) Plane and stay there all the way and that would be a Zero Shift.
http://redgoat.smugmug.com/gallery/102519/1/3788046
The photo has a yellow line showing the clubshaft angle at Address and a red line showing the clubshaft angle at Impact. The redline is on the Turned Shoulder Plane. You could start with the Clubshaft on that (red line) Plane and stay there all the way and that would be a Zero Shift.
quote:Originally posted by rwh
Yes, as in 10-6-B #1.
I don't think the Right Arm is straight at address, but it obviously appears "straighter" as the Plane Angles get steeper. The Big Deal is that the (Magical) Right Forearm is on-plane at address [note: the Forearm is not on the Hands Plane].
Is it absolutely necessary that the Clubshaft lie on the Turned Shoulder Plane Angle at Address? No. Chuck Evans states that you can just take your hands up the Plane Angle. So, you have choices. It seems to me that putting that Right Forearm on-plane at address and taking it up the plane and down the plane is the easisest way.
not so much right arm is straighter...look at wrist conditions necessary at setup to be on this "steeper plane"...acc3 is______?
wrist condition is______? ive been working on this for a while...yes you do feel that club is on its toe, i understand that feel...now imagine if you do this with driver? how would you look at setup?
it looks odd at setup because we dont see it much on TV, so how can it be good? ask Homer...[
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rwh
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quote:Originally posted by Powerdrawnot so much right arm is straighter...look at wrist conditions necessary at setup to be on this "steeper plane"...acc3 is______?
wrist condition is______? ive been working on this for a while...yes you do feel that club is on its toe, i understand that feel...now imagine if you do this with driver? how would you look at setup?
it looks odd at setup because we dont see it much on TV, so how can it be good? ask Homer...[
Yes, #2 is less if you set up on that plane. However, look at that Peter Jacobson picture -- that's where he is at Impact. Why not just start there?
rwh
New
Powerdraw makes a good point. All the action takes place on an Inclined Plane that can either remain stationary throughout -- Zero Shift -- or tilt steeper or flatter one or more times. It is the player's option.
My only complaint is that many instructors teach that the Plane mustShift, and that is simply incorrect information. Once I understood what Zero Shift was all about, I found that to be a much simpler and efficient way to go. Matt is an excellent player and he finds the same to be true. Your mileage may vary.
I still don't quite understand the zero shift.This would mean the entire swing would be on the same plane as the one set at address by the right forearm and club.In Jacobson's swing,this is the case halfway into his backstroke,but it moves onto a higher plane in the second half.The plane line is not really straight if you make a full swing,not a half swing.Perhaps this is an optical illusion?
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