Flat Backswing

[EdZ]

Ed, sorry dude, IT WORKS BETTER.

You wonder if all the teachers followed me instaed of someone else, how much golf could improve.

What a waste.

To be fair Brian (and you know how many years we have been chatting on the net) - I have certainly tried twistaway. It is a powerful approach, no doubt.

I'm not arguing if it is effective or not for certain patterns, what I'm saying is that a 'true' matching back of left hand and leading edge, requires you to arch at impact (not a bad thing) OR requires a very forward (at low point) ball position OR requires no/very little forward lean of the shaft at impact.

That said, it is geometrically a decent way to go - but personally I find it lacks impact 'support' and forces me to be in an arched position at the top. I will use a twistaway pattern at times, but just not as much of a 10-2-A as you suggest. I'll use it with 10-2-B and a no roll angled hinge, in which case it often 'feels' that the right hand is responsible for clubface control, or rather the 'stump'.

I used this pattern today in my practice session, the end result being I am confirming more and more that my lie angle on my irons is too flat, forcing me to use too shallow a plane angle.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Ed.....!!!!!!!!!!!!

You are a GOLF PRO!

Twistaway is for all those poor souls who can't hit a shot.

DEAD Netrual Grips help THEM the most, good players like you can play with 10-2-A, B, or D just as well or better, some of the time.

Here is a test (not just for Ed, for EVERYone):

Can you make a divot in front of the ball two out of three tries?

Can you hit a hook on purpose with your normal grip two out of three tries?

If you CAN, ANYTHING MIGHT WORK.

Anything.

 

[tongzilla]

I agree that they should be 'close', but matching can't be correct unless you are arching the wrist at impact or hitting the ball 'at' lowpoint with a club without offset/hookface.

Let impact fix be your guide.

That said, far, far better to arch the wrist at impact, than to cup it

EdZ:
If Low Point is also Separation, then your left wrist will exactly match the leading edge of the Clubface with a 10-2-B (V/V/A) grip because both the Clubface and Flat Left Wrist are Vertical to the ground. If Separation is before Low Point, the Clubface needs to be Square at Separation (and will be slightly closed at Low Point). Since the left wrist should still be Vertical to the ground, this means the leading edge will be very slightly closed relative to the left wrist when you take your grip at Impact Fix.

The SLICE CURE—Never Slice Again—and HOW I TEACH IT, which I don't tell very many people about, just teaching students, is really the only way to go.

Nothing is ever the only way. I bet you will do things differently 10 years later. 15 years ago you might have believed chip/pitch/punch is the only way. How things change...

Brian, please answer my post #10.

 

[birdie_man]

Nothing is ever the only way. I bet you will do things differently 10 years later. 15 years ago you might have believed chip/pitch/punch is the only way. How things change...

Maybe I should be letting Brian respond to this...

But Tong man...

If it's the BEST way (which might be debateable....although Brian would prolly debate that debate )....

Then why wouldn't it be the only way?

I mean....if it's clearly the best way....(might be debateable...)....

It might as well be the only way to do er.

 

[tongzilla]

Maybe I should be letting Brian respond to this...

But Tong man...

If it's the BEST way (which might be debateable....although Brian would prolly debate that debate )....

Then why wouldn't it be the only way?

I mean....if it's clearly the best way....(might be debateable...)....

It might as well be the only way to do er.

I'm saying it might be the best way NOW, but you are either very intelligent or very stupid to believe that the exact same thing will be the best way FOREVER.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Leo you COULDN'T BE more right!

Imagine that, someone teaching the SAME WAY for 20 years.

Sounds pretty dumb, doesn't it.





Now, the REASON I say it is the bast is the WAY it deals with the ROOT CAUSE.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Brian, I have an "original" concept ( ), but not sure if it's useful in the real world so I want to hear your thoughts.

From the down-the-line view or target view, when the hands reaches right shoulder height, it should cover the right shoulder also, so the hands are not inside (likely if you're a hooker) nor outside (likely if you're a slicer) of the right shoulder. This is true whether you shift up onto a steeper plane (e.g. Squared Shoulder) or remain on a "normal" plane (e.g. Turned Shoulder Plane).

I will draw some lines and post 'em up!

 

[EdZ]

You are a GOLF PRO!

Twistaway is for all those poor souls who can't hit a shot.

DEAD Netrual Grips help THEM the most, good players like you can play with 10-2-A, B, or D just as well or better, some of the time.

Here is a test (not just for Ed, for EVERYone):

Can you make a divot in front of the ball two out of three tries?

Can you hit a hook on purpose with your normal grip two out of three tries?

If you CAN, ANYTHING MIGHT WORK.

Anything.

I was mostly commenting on how the so called 'weak' left hand lacked impact 'support' IMO. I can do about any pattern, I guess I just don't quite see how a 10-2-A wins out over a 10-2-B in the use of twistaway, even for those that are still learning. That, and clarifying that 'matching' is a 'close' not an exact, due to the design of the club and the goal of impact before low point, which Leo posted, and I agree. If I really go to what I see as a 'matching' position, my left hand is so weak I see 'no' knuckles.

Just trying to understand more of your reasons behind using A over B? Or am I misunderstanding what you are suggesting and you are really talking about B?

 

[birdie_man]

I'm saying it might be the best way NOW, but you are either very intelligent or very stupid to believe that the exact same thing will be the best way FOREVER.

Ha...! Harsh....

...

Fair enough point....

But....

I'm STUPID to think that??? (please don't even respond to that )

So you're gonna guarantee it then I guess eh?

....

I'm all for improving....

....and you obviously are.....

But I dunno man....I just think it's a pretty damn good fix......

...

Brian....how long have you been doing it this way anyhow?

 

[tongzilla]

That, and clarifying that 'matching' is a 'close' not an exact, due to the design of the club and the goal of impact before low point, which Leo posted, and I agree. If I really go to what I see as a 'matching' position, my left hand is so weak I see 'no' knuckles.

Just trying to understand more of your reasons behind using A over B? Or am I misunderstanding what you are suggesting and you are really talking about B?

Brian's grip is not 10-2-A because he teaches that your Pressure Point #3 should be on the aft (behind) side of the shaft (10-2-B), and not on the top as 10-2-A requires. The left hand grip of 10-2-A/B are exactly the same. In 10-2-A, right hand grip may be slightly more rolled over in a weaker position to accomodate the top location of Pressure Point #3 (even though it's still classified as Vertical).

If you see no knuckles, then your grip is definately too weak. When the back of my left wrist matches the leading edge, I can see one and a half knuckles face on. Because the way our hands are built and how our fingers wrap around the club, you will still be able to see knuckles even when your grip is in a Vertical alignment.

When I talked about the leading edge being a little more closed relative to the Flat Left Wrist, it is very slight, maybe a fifth of a knuckle. You can see this if you use the geometrically correct procedure at Impact Fix and making sure your Left Wrist is Vertical to the ground before gripping.

 

[Brian Manzella]

There is HOPE for Leo.

Dude, you are really sarting to GET it!

 

[Brian Manzella]

...more flies with honey...

Just trying to understand more of your reasons behind using A over B? Or am I misunderstanding what you are suggesting and you are really talking about B?

I am talking about the EXACT GRIP I teach, whcih, like LEO says it not really an A.

But the EXACT grip.

Now for the WHY it works better...I ain't telling you, because you'll either (pick one):

1. Rip me and say you completely disagree

2. Say that someone says this too (even if NOONE ELSE ever has).

3. Or else recite some regurgitated kool-aid

Be nice, and maybe I'll help you with your teaching career.

 

[tongzilla]

I am talking about the EXACT GRIP I teach, whcih, like LEO says it not really an A.

But the EXACT grip.

Now for the WHY it works better...I ain't telling you, because you'll either (pick one):

1. Rip me and say you completely disagree

2. Say that someone says this too (even if NOONE ELSE ever has).

3. Or else recite some regurgitated kool-aid

Be nice, and maybe I'll help you with your teaching career.

4. He may genuinely disagree and want to learn why you have a different perspective.

 

[Brian Manzella]

The real deal.

4. He may genuinely disagree and want to learn why you have a different perspective.

Leo, with all due respect and an attempt at modesty, I am one of the very best golf teachers in the world. Ask anyone who has worked with multiple "Top100/50" teachers AND me. Like scandres. Or anyone who fits this profile.

I have given over 25,000 hours of instruction and a spent at LEAST that much time doing research.

Ed is a younger guy just getting started in the business. Just like Jim0068.

Jim takes lessons from me and is nice to me, and he SHOULD BE, he was a struggling player who is now a fine player and an up an coming teacher. For the PROPER respect he SHOWS me, he get access to EVERYTHING I KNOW.

This is VERY SIMILAR to my relationship with Ben Doyle when I was younger and an up and comer.

Ed, has this relationship (I think) with another teacher. Cool. But if he wants a look at the INSIDE OF MY COCONUT on why I do what I do, he needs to come work with me and go from there.

This a free advice forum, where I give away PLENTY for FREE—

...but not EVERYTHING.

 

[EdZ]

Leo, with all due respect and an attempt at modesty, I am one of the very best golf teachers in the world. Ask anyone who has worked with multiple "Top100/50" teachers AND me. Like scandres. Or anyone who fits this profile.

I have given over 25,000 hours of instruction and a spent at LEAST that much time doing research.

Ed is a younger guy just getting started in the business. Just like Jim0068.

Jim takes lessons from me and is nice to me, and he SHOULD BE, he was a struggling player who is now a fine player and an up an coming teacher. For the PROPER respect he SHOWS me, he get access to EVERYTHING I KNOW.

This is VERY SIMILAR to my relationship with Ben Doyle when I was younger and an up and comer.

Ed, has this relationship (I think) with another teacher. Cool. But if he wants a look at the INSIDE OF MY COCONUT on why I do what I do, he needs to come work with me and go from there.

This a free advice forum, where I give away PLENTY for FREE—

...but not EVERYTHING.

Gee, didn't know that 34 counted as a young to a guy not that much older, but thanks. Just getting started? I've been playing/teaching/learning this game for over 30 years. Hardly just getting started. Not a member of the pga though, so if that is what you are talking about. Didn't stop me from teaching at recent PGA event though.

All this for just not agreeing with you, and for explaining my reasons too. I guess you must not appreciate the time and effort I have made into this site 'helping you'.

If you don't want to answer, that's totally fine by me. I can respect that you don't want to give everything away, but spare me the b.s. and just say so.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Ed, this computer is new and won't wear out soon....

Gee, didn't know that 34 counted as a young to a guy not that much older, but thanks. Just getting started? I've been playing/teaching/learning this game for over 30 years.

How many lessons have you given? 100? 1000?

Didn't stop me from teaching at recent PGA event though.

Doing a clinic with that you do claim not to be a posse member of.

All this for just not agreeing with you, and for explaining my reasons too. I guess you must not appreciate the time and effort I have made into this site 'helping you'.

Thanks for all the condescending posts.

If you don't want to answer, that's totally fine by me. I can respect that you don't want to give everything away, but spare me the b.s. and just say so.

You miss the point. I ain't helping people who rip me. Why should I?