Flat vs Rotated shoulder turn?
- Thread starter densikat
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The shoulder turn should neither be flat nor too upright - it should be relative to the spinal/hip tilt at address.
Imagine the top bar of the letter T (shoulders) where it spins on top of the upright line (spine) - thats horizontal or flat. Now tilt the letter T away from you, towards the ball, say, and then spin the top bar on top of the upright line and you get a more upright or plane rotated shoulder turn.
This plane line turn will vary in steepness according to the club in use. Short irons steepest through to driver, flatest.
Imagine the top bar of the letter T (shoulders) where it spins on top of the upright line (spine) - thats horizontal or flat. Now tilt the letter T away from you, towards the ball, say, and then spin the top bar on top of the upright line and you get a more upright or plane rotated shoulder turn.
This plane line turn will vary in steepness according to the club in use. Short irons steepest through to driver, flatest.
If we are speaking in the terms and views of TGM and it's author, the preference he subscribed to, then we would use what Homer named "Standard Shoulder Turn." Meaning that by using a flat backstroke shoulder turn the right is then on plane at the top in relation to the inclinded plane. By being in this position, all one must do is move the already on plane right shoulder down plane and the arms will follow.
There are other options but......
This can be very difficult to see or envision. Homer spoke of himself struggling to see this though he wrote about it. Clarity came to him once he put himself into the center of a full blown incline plane.
Hope this answers your question.
Flat does not mean the the shoulders turn level to the horizon. If you took a longish type pole and laid it across the front of your shoulders and turned to the top, the pole would not be pointing at the target line. It would point someplace outside the line dependent on club used and the amount of knee and waist bend incorporated for said club.
A good number of golfers allow the club to be taken to the top via their shoulder turn. This is incorrect. They fail to see that as they pivot that the folding of the trail arm supplies the verticality of the club motion. It is a tracing of the plane line with the trail forearm, and then a trail forearm picking up feel. This is done while trying to keep the trail arm straight (Extensor Action).
Hope that answers you question. If not, let me know.
cdog, let me assume that what you term as "tilted turn" is what I describe with the pole in the previous post. That it would point at the line. If this is the case, this can be used. Keep in mind though that the waist bend must be dead on for the right shoulder to be on plane at the top. Hip turn (coincides with the waist bend) would also need to be looked at or adjusted which would fall into the axis tilt discussion elsewhere on the forum. Don't really want to go down that road.
I would probably confuse everyone and their would be a mass exodus, including myself.Remember, what we would like to accomplish is an on plane trail shoulder motion. As mentioned elsewhere, this may be difficult to envision without a full blown inclined plane that you can stand in the center of.
If this answer does not suffice or misses the mark to your question, please feel free to let me know.
Dude, it would seem if we are tilted so our shoulders are parallel to the plane, we would sort of have a T look (does that make sense? The top of the T the shoulder line, the verticle part the spine). The rear arm would still fold, but on the down swing we would simply need to rotate our shoulders to come into impact, no need to time the up and down with the arms and the rotation of the torso. If you say the Jim Hardy academy, this is what im referencing.
Sorry cdog but I did not see the Hardy show. I do think I understand what you're saying. Let me ask you a question for possible clarification (fingers crossed). Are you saying that at the top, considering the shoulders as one unit, that the shoulder angle would be parallel to the plane angle?
Since i couldnt sleep, i decided to break the tape down and make some notes to post. Remember, these are Jim Hardy's statements not mine, so you really dont need to post to tell me this isnt right, or thats not how it works, just take it and think about it, i think he's dead on the money.
2 plane definition- Shoulder plane and arm plane, shoulders working more LEVEL , arms working on a different plane up and down. The 2 planes must be TIMED and coordinated to produce the swing plane.
1 plane- spine tilted, rear to the REAR. The shoulder turn prepindicular to the tilted spine, the arms follow the shoulders, on plane to the ball. The arms work more AROUND the body and across the chest, hence the emphasis on connection.
Differences, 1 plane say turn shoulders from the top, 2 plane says dont. 1 plane core TURNS, 2 tends to tilt. 1 plane has natural width, 2 plane more narrow. which affect the pivot and weight shift.
Transition- 2 plane, 1 st move is a dropping of the hands AND a laterial bump or move towards the target, which does a few things but it also slows the shoulder turn down because if they turned at the start, you would be O.T.T.
1 plane-since you are in essence onplane in the whole backswing going back, simply rotate back on the same plane. The key is to rotate your CORE. If you rotate just the hips, you will tilt, and come out of the shot ( i do this at times, so it hit home with me).
Weight shift, with a 2 plane, he demonstrated how you are pivoting on both hip sockets and it tends to produce laterial moves in both directions back and forward.
1 plane, he really in essence showed the sit down move (my words NOT his), no real laterial moves needed, and said that you could stay on the lead leg and hit good shots.
The main trouble with each that was stressed, 2 plane- the timing needed of the shoulder and arm planes, to produce the swing plane to the ball.
1 plane-the proper CORE rotation, many rotate the hips that cause you to get upper stuck and come out of spine angle.
A swing tip that is given is to move the rear hip or knee towards the ball, with a 1 plane this is improper rotation.
There is a lot more details, but these seem to be the main points that I took from it.
2 plane definition- Shoulder plane and arm plane, shoulders working more LEVEL , arms working on a different plane up and down. The 2 planes must be TIMED and coordinated to produce the swing plane.
1 plane- spine tilted, rear to the REAR. The shoulder turn prepindicular to the tilted spine, the arms follow the shoulders, on plane to the ball. The arms work more AROUND the body and across the chest, hence the emphasis on connection.
Differences, 1 plane say turn shoulders from the top, 2 plane says dont. 1 plane core TURNS, 2 tends to tilt. 1 plane has natural width, 2 plane more narrow. which affect the pivot and weight shift.
Transition- 2 plane, 1 st move is a dropping of the hands AND a laterial bump or move towards the target, which does a few things but it also slows the shoulder turn down because if they turned at the start, you would be O.T.T.
1 plane-since you are in essence onplane in the whole backswing going back, simply rotate back on the same plane. The key is to rotate your CORE. If you rotate just the hips, you will tilt, and come out of the shot ( i do this at times, so it hit home with me).
Weight shift, with a 2 plane, he demonstrated how you are pivoting on both hip sockets and it tends to produce laterial moves in both directions back and forward.
1 plane, he really in essence showed the sit down move (my words NOT his), no real laterial moves needed, and said that you could stay on the lead leg and hit good shots.
The main trouble with each that was stressed, 2 plane- the timing needed of the shoulder and arm planes, to produce the swing plane to the ball.
1 plane-the proper CORE rotation, many rotate the hips that cause you to get upper stuck and come out of spine angle.
A swing tip that is given is to move the rear hip or knee towards the ball, with a 1 plane this is improper rotation.
There is a lot more details, but these seem to be the main points that I took from it.
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