Flipping: Where do we stand?

[Todd Dugan]

The idea of an "out-toss" is simply a feel to work against an INCORRECT application of force.

Just look at the Where's the Torque thread.....ALL THE ANSWERS ARE THERE.

Any force which moves the hands around the body is "correct". And the more forceful the technique, the better......again, so long as it does not prevent good release timing for an optimal D Plane.

 

[spktho]

Any force which moves the hands around the body is "correct". And the more forceful the technique, the better......again, so long as it does not prevent good release timing for an optimal D Plane.

I'm kind of confused on what you are saying in this thread. You agree that the out-toss and release from the top may work for the over lagging golfer. I hope that is correct and if so, sounds good to me.

The part I think you can clarify some is using your double pendulum model, how or in what direction should the flipper apply force from the top of the back swing?

From the above, "around the body" to me implies the hands should move horizontally or around the body which could easily be a tug. I'm trying to understand how you help the flipper, but as has been said before, it sounds as if it is the same old information that actually made mine and other peoples' flipping worse.

 

[Todd Dugan]

I'm kind of confused on what you are saying in this thread. You agree that the out-toss and release from the top may work for the over lagging golfer. I hope that is correct and if so, sounds good to me.

The part I think you can clarify some is using your double pendulum model, how or in what direction should the flipper apply force from the top of the back swing?

From the above, "around the body" to me implies the hands should move horizontally or around the body which could easily be a tug. I'm trying to understand how you help the flipper, but as has been said before, it sounds as if it is the same old information that actually made mine and other peoples' flipping worse.

The double pendulum model isn't "mine", per se. It has been used at one time or another, and for good reason, by all the best scientists who have studied the golf swing. It clarifys so much confusion....like which direction the "bob" end of the upper "rod" moves to begin the downswing. Construct a simple model and see for yourself. Obviously, it is NOT at the ball.

If the "traditional" methods to fix an "early release" actually make the problem worse, then Brian himself made flips worse for 20 years! Obviously, he FIXED flips, not made them worse. I mean, was "Confessions of a Former Flipper" junk? Of course not. For people who need it, that stuff is "gold".

 

[spktho]

The double pendulum model isn't "mine", per se. It has been used at one time or another, and for good reason, by all the best scientists who have studied the golf swing. It clarifys so much confusion....like which direction the "bob" end of the upper "rod" moves to begin the downswing. Construct a simple model and see for yourself. Obviously, it is NOT at the ball.

Fair enough, I understand a little better. So you would strive to separate the arms falling from the pivot(arms falling before any of the pivot rotation)?

If the "traditional" methods to fix an "early release" actually make the problem worse, then Brian himself made flips worse for 20 years! Obviously, he FIXED flips, not made them worse. I mean, was "Confessions of a Former Flipper" junk? Of course not. For people who need it, that stuff is "gold".

I wasn't speaking about Brian's "Confessions" video. No need to even bring up Brian's past teachings.

I guess I and many others were simply unlucky not to find the right teacher who would focus on disconnecting the hand path from the pivot rather than focus on pivoting more in an effort to correct a flip.

 

[Todd Dugan]

Sounds like a few folks couldn't cure their flip with the body pivot motion alone. I've seen that in person. The other peice to the puzzle is right arm straightening past impact. Every flipper's right arm is pretty much straight at impact, if it straightens at all. If the "out-toss" is effective anti-flip medicine, it is likely because it gets the player consciously straightening the right arm, and that extention continues later. Remember, the whole downswing takes just a few tenths of a second.

 

[Kevin Shields]

Yeah, it all happens so fast. If the player doesn't have separating the arms, hand path and straightening the right arm as a top priority and delay these things even for a second.....they'll do a fast flip to save it.

 

[rcw]

Kevin,

So should there be no conscious attempt of moving the grip lengthwise or tangential at the beginning of downswing? Or will that be a result of doing those 3 other things?

 

[Brian Manzella]

Sooooo... is "flipping" just a premature gamma torque..

No.

I'd say premature negative alpha.

You're not "over-accelerating" from the top IF you can accelerate the club around the hands quickly enough for good release timing.

But you might struggle with your game forever.

Any force which moves the hands around the body is "correct". And the more forceful the technique, the better......again, so long as it does not prevent good release timing for an optimal D Plane.

Except at the end of the release phase!

If the "traditional" methods to fix an "early release" actually make the problem worse, then Brian himself made flips worse for 20 years! Obviously, he FIXED flips, not made them worse. I mean, was "Confessions of a Former Flipper" junk? Of course not. For people who need it, that stuff is "gold".

Anything can be over done.

So should there be no conscious attempt of moving the grip lengthwise or tangential at the beginning of downswing? Or will that be a result of doing those 3 other things?

Well...

If that works for you.

The actual "force" is not exactly in the direction of the shaft.

 

[SteveT]

Sooooo... is "flipping" just a premature gamma torque..

No. I'd say premature negative alpha.

Interesting, and yes I can see a grossly premature negative alpha torque (aka "blocking" of the hip and/or shoulder rotation) causing a disorder in the kinematic sequencing and rushing the flow of kinetic energy into the clubhead.... resulting in a "flip"... or premature release.

However, my comment was based on the concept that the golfer attempts to apply gamma torque by vigorously supinating the lead hand and causing an early flip as well.

Also incorrect timing of the beta torque can contribute to flipping as well which shows up as excessive "over-the-top" pitching of the club and then applying gamma torque around the shaft axis.

Sooooo, could "flipping" also be caused by a combination of misapplied alpha, beta and gamma torques..??!!!!


Here is your graph of all three torque conditions and the positions within the downswing. Looking at the alpha torque line, would the "premature negative torque" occur early in the downswing and causing the alpha torque line to dip down even further than shown?

This would upset the kinetic segmental sequencing and cause clubhead flip too early in the downswing. Plain and simple...

 

[drewyallop]

I believe that I read in the Nesbit paper that the Beta torque was lowest for the scratch golfer. I am wondering if this could be true for all "good" swingers. And if it is, is there something in their swings that can account for low beta.

Of course, it could just be a result of the scratch golfer's unique swing.

 

[bluebird]

I believe that I read in the Nesbit paper that the Beta torque was lowest for the scratch golfer. I am wondering if this could be true for all "good" swingers. And if it is, is there something in their swings that can account for low beta.

Of course, it could just be a result of the scratch golfer's unique swing.

Good question. Just guessing if their path's are refined early in their swing. the need for late corrections would diminish, diminishing their Beta torque application. Another guess is since their swing velocity is great and their beta is low, it leads me to conclude that beta is for path and not power? Perhaps it's not that simple?

 

[SteveT]

See .... the golfswing is as simple as... ALPHA BETA GAMMA


(The real secret to more power is the DELTA FORCE!!!!)

 

[Brian Manzella]

On low enough power shots, flipping is simply the coupling point being jerked back or widely off its path.