Flop with flat left wrist

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jeffy

Banned
How much more "throw away" do you want???? These are two very nice examples of a flop shot with a lot of throw away or "flip". I would call this the opposite of the "flat left wrist method":

Flopshot2.jpg


Right wrist straight, left wrist bent, hands are BEHIND ball at address AND impact, and clubhead well past the hands AND ball right after impact. If the player had used a "flat left wrist method" here (trailing clubhead), the volunteer would have been forced to adopt any children he wanted in the future...
 
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Looks pretty flat to me at impact. After the ball has seperated (like in the still you used), it doesn't really matter what the arms, hands, or club do be cause the influence on the ball is over, right? Would you agree that the shaft is up the left arm rather than up the right arm during the moment of truth? Of course the club head will pass the hands post impact - it is after all a flop shot :) No one's claiming a hinge and hold is the way to do it, but it can be done with a nice flat lead wrist and open club face.

Two sides of the same coin really. Both viable ways of hitting the flop, but as "Over and Out" stresses, it's all about which you're comfortable doing when a few pesos are on the line.
 

jeffy

Banned
Nice try, but now you are just changing what you consider to be the "flat left wrist method". As authority for what the "flat left wrist method" is, you previously linked to this video of Phil Mickelson:

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5ophbTUY7s[/media]

In contrast to a swing with a lot of throw away, where the left arm slows down and the clubhead passes, he stresses keeping both the arm and club accelerating through impact. He demonstrates the proper post-impact position:

Leftyflopshotpostimpact.jpg
 
Why are you making the simplest things so complicated?;)

Here's my definition of a flat left wristed flop....
Picture1.png


Here's my definition of a non flat left wristed flop...
jeffylobrightatimpact.jpg


What the club does after the ball leaves the face doesn't matter to me in the least as it relates to how I define the two. With regards to the Phil photo, I have never seen him hit a flop with that action. However, if he keeps it flat at impact, I would consider him a flat wrist flopper. I am also willing to give anyone who's won 30+ times with multiple majors the benefit of the doubt as to how they describe what they do. He is not my 'authority' for the short game, I don't have a thimble of the talent to do the things he can with a wedge. I do however like to have a flat left wrist at impact with all my shots - this is no more complicated than that.
 

jeffy

Banned
Picture2.png
Picture1.png


Looks pretty flat to me at impact.

Having a flat left wrist at impact doesn't mean that the arms and club are both accelerating through impact, which is a requirement of Lefty's "flat left wrist method". Also, these stills are from the first swing; my picture was from the second. What do the comparable pictures from the second swing show (I can't seem to frame-by-frame a YouTube video as well as you can)?

After the ball has seperated (like in the still you used), it doesn't really matter what the arms, hands, or club do be cause the influence on the ball is over, right?

That is indeed correct; however, what the arms, hands, or clubs do after impact are a direct reflection of what is going on prior to impact: in these swings, what happens after separation shows that the clubhead is moving FASTER than the arms and hands, which makes for a softer shot. When the arms, hands and club are traveling closer to the same speed, there is more compression on the ball, and it goes further.

Would you agree that the shaft is up the left arm rather than up the right arm during the moment of truth?

Agreed; but wrist alignment at "the moment truth" is just one part; the relative speed of the clubhead to the handle is what distinguishes a soft swing with a lot of throw away versus the "flat left wrist method" described by Lefty in your video.

Of course the club head will pass the hands post impact - it is after all a flop shot :) No one's claiming a hinge and hold is the way to do it, but it can be done with a nice flat lead wrist and open club face.

I guess you need to watch your Lefty video again, because that is exactly what he is claiming!

Two sides of the same coin really. Both viable ways of hitting the flop, but as "Over and Out" stresses, it's all about which you're comfortable doing when a few pesos are on the line.

Lefty's "flat left wrist method" is really for tight lies where you want to minimize the bounce. Although he doesn't say it on the video, I bet he uses a lot more throw away when he has the lie for it.
 

jeffy

Banned
Why are you making the simplest things so complicated?;)

I don't think it is complicated.

Here's my definition of a flat left wristed flop....
Picture1.png

I guess that's today's definition: it didn't use to be. Your video of Phil was of a distinctly different method, without any throw away.

Here's my definition of a non flat left wristed flop...
jeffylobrightatimpact.jpg

That's nonsense; it is the same method as the other, I just used a little more throw away prior to impact. On the next swing I could easily use a little less and have a flat left wrist. The technique is the same.

What the club does after the ball leaves the face doesn't matter to me in the least as it relates to how I define the two.

How the club reacts after impact says everything about the different methods of hitting short shots.

With regards to the Phil photo, I have never seen him hit a flop with that action.

If that is the case, then what exactly is he doing in the swing he makes allegedly using that method????

However, if he keeps it flat at impact, I would consider him a flat wrist flopper.

OK, then what do you consider him if he happens to hit a flop from a fluffy lie and has some left wrist bend at impact?

I am also willing to give anyone who's won 30+ times with multiple majors the benefit of the doubt as to how they describe what they do.

Now you've lost me...

He is not my 'authority' for the short game, I don't have a thimble of the talent to do the things he can with a wedge.

Then why did you link to that video as an illustration of what you thought the proper "flat left wrist" flop technique ought to be???

I do however like to have a flat left wrist at impact with all my shots - this is no more complicated than that.

Yawn...
 
That's nonsense; it is the same method as the other, I just used a little more throw away prior to impact. On the next swing I could easily use a little less and have a flat left wrist. The technique is the same.

By definition, if you use a different release you are using a different technique. If you have throw away prior to impact - you don't have a flat left wrist. If you change that on the next swing to have a flat left wrist - guess what, it's a different technique. And btw, if a flat left wrist was all you changed, you wouldn't be hitting the same flop shot. A flat left wrist with a square clubface would not produce much of a flop at all. So not only a different technique but also a different shot.

How the club reacts after impact says everything about the different methods of hitting short shots.

How the club reacts with the ball says everything about the result you get - the rest is show biz and style.

If that is the case, then what exactly is he doing in the swing he makes allegedly using that method????

The club will pass the hands in all shots as the right wrist straightens which means with a wedge, iron, hybrid, and driver. The question is, does it straighten before or after impact. Why are you making this soooo hard?

OK, then what do you consider him if he happens to hit a flop from a fluffy lie and has some left wrist bend at impact?

If he has left wrist bend at impact - guess what....(wait for it).... he's NOT hitting a flat wristed flop.

Then why did you link to that video as an illustration of what you thought the proper "flat left wrist" flop technique ought to be???

Because the high speed video I used in this thread was not available then, and that was the only decent flop footage I found on Youtube at the time.
 

Kevin Shields

Super Moderator
Why are you making the simplest things so complicated?;)

Here's my definition of a flat left wristed flop....
Picture1.png


Here's my definition of a non flat left wristed flop...
jeffylobrightatimpact.jpg


What the club does after the ball leaves the face doesn't matter to me in the least as it relates to how I define the two. With regards to the Phil photo, I have never seen him hit a flop with that action. However, if he keeps it flat at impact, I would consider him a flat wrist flopper. I am also willing to give anyone who's won 30+ times with multiple majors the benefit of the doubt as to how they describe what they do. He is not my 'authority' for the short game, I don't have a thimble of the talent to do the things he can with a wedge. I do however like to have a flat left wrist at impact with all my shots - this is no more complicated than that.

Both shafts are at 90 degrees to the ground.
 

jeffy

Banned
By definition, if you use a different release you are using a different technique. If you have throw away prior to impact - you don't have a flat left wrist. If you change that on the next swing to have a flat left wrist - guess what, it's a different technique. And btw, if a flat left wrist was all you changed, you wouldn't be hitting the same flop shot. A flat left wrist with a square clubface would not produce much of a flop at all. So not only a different technique but also a different shot.

Now you are trying to redefine "throw away" and "flip release". You can have a lot of throw away and a flip release but still have a flat left wrist right at impact or a little beyond. The critical element is that the clubhead is speeding up while the hands are slowing down. You can vary how you set the clubface and how much you release the right wrist to suit the shot and conditions. Each specific combination is part of the same technique, not a different technique.

Mickelson's technique in the video you provided as a definition of the "flat left wrist method" had the arms and club both accelerating through impact, which would be a very different technique.

BTW, I bet I can hit a very soft shot with a square face and flat left wrist at impact (but bending immediately afterwards), just not as soft as one hit with more flip before impact and an open face; however, I'd need a good lie to do it.

BTW, I wasn't using a square face on that shot, and don't normally on a flop shot. A different technique that Utley teaches combines a square face with a left wrist that is cupped at address and throughout the swing. I can do it in practice, but it feels awkward. I prefer the flip release I worked on with Brian.

How the club reacts with the ball says everything about the result you get - the rest is show biz and style.

Funny you should quote Brian here because he is the one who taught me that you should judge the quality of your short shot technique by how the club reacts after impact: up the right arm at waist-high on a mid-sole pitch, above the right arm on a back-edge lob, below the right arm on a leading edge pitch.

The club will pass the hands in all shots as the right wrist straightens which means with a wedge, iron, hybrid, and driver. The question is, does it straighten before or after impact.

No, that isn't the question. The question is how fast the clubhead passes the handle around impact. On a lob shot, you want the clubhead to be moving faster than the ball right after impact, which means the hands will have almost stopped. The left wrist condition AT the instant of impact does not make this happen, BUT trying to maintain a flat left wrist condition THROUGH impact, like Mickelson demonstrates, would prevent it.

Why are you making this soooo hard?

I'm not making it hard; you are. Just admit you are wrong.

If he has left wrist bend at impact - guess what....(wait for it).... he's NOT hitting a flat wristed flop.

But you told me that he only hit flat-wristed flops, accelerating the arms and club through impact, and linked to that video as proof. It's nice that you've changed your mind.

Because the high speed video I used in this thread was not available then, and that was the only decent flop footage I found on Youtube at the time.

What this guy is doing is completely different from what Mickelson describes in your video. If you're now saying that what this guy is doing is your preferred technique to hit super high, soft lobs, then I agree, and it is the same technique I use.
 
I apologize. I realize this little debate with Mr Martin can seem like nails on a chalk board, but as our POTUS likes to say, I see this as a teachable moment. I've learned a lot over the years through this lecturing processes. For example, I've learned the superiority of the one plane swing. Today, my lesson just happens to be on the finer points of the flop shot. And as a bonus, I'm also getting a lesson in confidence. There is no finer display of one's confidence in their convictions when they can (without hesitation) dole out authoritative short game fundamentals - despite being a full 18 strokes higher on the index totem pole. While I understand the inherent bourdon and responsibility of being a scratch level swing theory forum debater, my teacher must also understand the bourdon of actually having to post sub par rounds. As difficult as it has been, I'm doing my best to become more forum oriented and less score oriented. It's a process that these type lessons have been a big help with.
 

Brian Manzella

Administrator
More Sanity.

Definitions.

Lob Shot: A shot hit at low point, or past low point.

Cut Shot: A Shot hit with an open face.

A Cut-Lob: A shot hit at low point, or past low point, with an open face.

Flop-Shot: A really high short wedge shot
 

jeffy

Banned
There is no finer display of one's confidence in their convictions when they can (without hesitation) dole out authoritative short game fundamentals

It is easy to have confidence when you have learned from Brian, the "best in the biz", as you have told me.

- despite being a full 18 strokes higher on the index totem pole.

I set my trap and you walked right in: when you have lost the debate, you inevitably bring out your standby "I shoot lower scores than you, so you must be wrong". That is called an argumentum ad hominen and won't work in court, if you still plan to pursue a law career. BTW, you are a +6??? Why aren't you playing golf for a living instead of hanging out on golf forums???
 
Brian is top shelf - that we can certainly agree on.

Please don't confuse losing with getting bored by the topic - two very different animals.

A 12.1 index on your home course with a slope of 136 would get adjusted upward to a handicap of 15. My index of +3.1 would actually be adjusted downward to a handicap of +4. A 19 shot spread.

The scores we shoot having nothing to do with right or wrong, but they do cary a little weight when separating theory from reality. Just ease up on the tone when you have yet to put into practice what you preach.

The law career was really a low blow :) I'm a custom cabinet maker from the Atlanta area with no interest in learning law or Latin. Just to prove I'm no lawyer, you can have the last word in this discussion - make 'em witty, stinging, and good. Until next time...
 

jeffy

Banned
The law career was really a low blow :) I'm a custom cabinet maker from the Atlanta area with no interest in learning law or Latin.

That was an unintended slight; I genuinely thought you were, or had been, in law school. I guess that is why you misspelled "burden"...
 
Definitions.

Lob Shot: A shot hit at low point, or past low point.

Cut Shot: A Shot hit with an open face.

A Cut-Lob: A shot hit at low point, or past low point, with an open face.

Flop-Shot: A really high short wedge shot

Well defined Brian.

Paul Runyan, the short game master, would approve. He also added the term "Pinch" to the mix, to define contact with the ball prior to low point (ref: The Short Way to Lower Scoring by Paul Runyan).
 
I apologize. I realize this little debate with Mr Martin can seem like nails on a chalk board, but as our POTUS likes to say, I see this as a teachable moment. I've learned a lot over the years through this lecturing processes. For example, I've learned the superiority of the one plane swing. Today, my lesson just happens to be on the finer points of the flop shot. And as a bonus, I'm also getting a lesson in confidence. There is no finer display of one's confidence in their convictions when they can (without hesitation) dole out authoritative short game fundamentals - despite being a full 18 strokes higher on the index totem pole. While I understand the inherent bourdon and responsibility of being a scratch level swing theory forum debater, my teacher must also understand the bourdon of actually having to post sub par rounds. As difficult as it has been, I'm doing my best to become more forum oriented and less score oriented. It's a process that these type lessons have been a big help with.

Funny post.

I should have just come out and said it: it's not your thread granato...just where it has gone.

This ain't the first argument jeffy has been in. I'm still not sure if he is capable of making a point without being abrasive.

I do doubt it but I hope I haven't missed something.

(I skimmed only part of this and bypassed the rest)
 
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