Forefingers down shaft
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Jim Kobylinski
Super Moderator
This is what i reccomend as grip type when i teach putting. It gives you pressure points for your putter.
Left forefinger you can use to push the putter head back (or guide it back) and then use the right forefinger to push the putter head through (or guide it through).
I call it my gun slinger grip
! Cuz if you took your hands off the putter and put up your hands you'd look like a 5 year old who's playing with his make believe gun.
Left forefinger you can use to push the putter head back (or guide it back) and then use the right forefinger to push the putter head through (or guide it through).
I call it my gun slinger grip
! Cuz if you took your hands off the putter and put up your hands you'd look like a 5 year old who's playing with his make believe gun. I've been doing it for about 12 years now F...
However, I like to put my left forefinger right on the shaft as well, not outside the fingers of the right hand as most do. Then I wrap my right hand fingers around the shaft and the forefinger...
This puts the right hand in control of the club and the timing of the stroke.
Stretching the forefingers down the shaft firms up the wrists, which means there will be less tendency for the wrists to beak during the stroke.
However...
Breaking the wrists isn't as bad of a deal as people think. As long as it is not excessive, it can help with timing by making the action more akin to a right hand throw, which is the natural way you would want to direct the ball towards the hole...he main thing about the putting grip, whatever method you use, is that your grip should contribute to giving you the maximum right hand "feeling" and control...putting is a right hand action...everything should follow the intent of the right hand, and NOT follow the shouilder tilt/turn/rock, they are secondary supportive or "comfort" actions, which in my experience are not neccessary...
...
Jim, You will be compromising your putting efficiency by switching attention during the putting stroke, i.e. "left-finger, right-finger." There is too much to think about without having to add an additional swing "thought."...
Plus the fact, if you pressure the forefingers in any way, you are applying a high amount of leverage on the other hand, which will make the wrists break more easily...
Use your right hand ONLY for the whole motion. The most sensitive part of your right hand is the palm. That is where your feel is for putting and also, if you apply pressure from the palm, it is higher up the fulcrum of the whole grip, so there will be less tendency for the wrists to break...
Jim, You will be compromising your putting efficiency by switching attention during the putting stroke, i.e. "left-finger, right-finger." There is too much to think about without having to add an additional swing "thought."...
Plus the fact, if you pressure the forefingers in any way, you are applying a high amount of leverage on the other hand, which will make the wrists break more easily...
Use your right hand ONLY for the whole motion. The most sensitive part of your right hand is the palm. That is where your feel is for putting and also, if you apply pressure from the palm, it is higher up the fulcrum of the whole grip, so there will be less tendency for the wrists to break...
Jim Kobylinski
Super Moderator
Jim, You will be compromising your putting efficiency by switching attention during the putting stroke, i.e. "left-finger, right-finger." There is too much to think about without having to add an additional swing "thought."...
Plus the fact, if you pressure the forefingers in any way, you are applying a high amount of leverage on the other hand, which will make the wrists break more easily...
Use your right hand ONLY for the whole motion. The most sensitive part of your right hand is the palm. That is where your feel is for putting and also, if you apply pressure from the palm, it is higher up the fulcrum of the whole grip, so there will be less tendency for the wrists to break...
I disagree and so do my students. You are over applying my idea of "pressure." It is extremely slight and more of a miniscule push to get going the other way. It's just like aimining lag pressure on your full swing. I have a specific routine and metronome (sp?) that i give during putting lessons and only during my putting lessons that pretty much fixes most problems in people's putting stroke. I then show them how the plane is the boss when it comes to putting and most improve their putting dramatically.
This is my area of expertise and i have a number of ways of "getting it done" for my students. This is just the basic way we start. Putting was the only thing brian has never changed in my golf game and it's the same reason why Ben never changed brian's bunker game
Ok Jim,
I'm not going to argue with you.
I could also say I have students that disagree with you, but that would get us nowhere...
You say this is your area of expertise. It is also mine. I have over 200 satisfied students out there, including a blind lady golfer who 1-putted on one green and 2-putted six greens in a row out of the first 9-hole executive golf course she played after my teaching, so I have nothing to prove to anyone...
After a long layoff from putting and golf in general my putting stroke was still to the standard of the top 50% of tour pro strokes (SAM Puttlab analysis), and that was cold, coming in off the street...
We'll have to agree to disagree on this one...
I thought that besides learning something on this forum, it maybe that I could also help a few...
Maybe I was wrong, so there is no point in me posting here then...
I'm not going to argue with you.
I could also say I have students that disagree with you, but that would get us nowhere...
You say this is your area of expertise. It is also mine. I have over 200 satisfied students out there, including a blind lady golfer who 1-putted on one green and 2-putted six greens in a row out of the first 9-hole executive golf course she played after my teaching, so I have nothing to prove to anyone...
After a long layoff from putting and golf in general my putting stroke was still to the standard of the top 50% of tour pro strokes (SAM Puttlab analysis), and that was cold, coming in off the street...
We'll have to agree to disagree on this one...
I thought that besides learning something on this forum, it maybe that I could also help a few...
Maybe I was wrong, so there is no point in me posting here then...
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Brian Manzella
Administrator
Putting Grips, Putting Stroke and the word ALWAYS.
I have putted poorly with some grips that looked good, and GREAT with grips that looked horrible.
Putmad, I realize you are a "putting guy," but just like "swing guys" there are different ways to do it.
And GET THIS: In puting you don't even NEED the three imperatives!!!
All you need is the ball to start on the line you wish at the right speed.
I have putted poorly with some grips that looked good, and GREAT with grips that looked horrible.
Putmad, I realize you are a "putting guy," but just like "swing guys" there are different ways to do it.
And GET THIS: In puting you don't even NEED the three imperatives!!!
All you need is the ball to start on the line you wish at the right speed.
Brian Manzella
Administrator
I like Jim's answer (above), and I will say that Nancy Lopez used this grip to become world-famous.
....
Precisely...but I would like to change it to read "the correct line"...
Unfortunately, just having a good putting stroke is not the end of it...
If you took a raw beginner and gave them the best stroke in the world, would they make putts?...probably not...and they would probably not become as good a putter as you would think either.
It's the differnce between learning to throw and learning to catch. Which comes first?
People will generally learn to catch only after they have learned to throw, simply because they have assimilated some feeling for velocity and trajectory.
The same with putting. If you want to be a great putter, it is no use (and in fact detrimental) learning a great technique before you have learned to control the speed to a very high degree of accuracy and consistency. This is where most teaching goes wrong. They teach the wrong thing first.
If anyone ever asks me how they can be the best putter they can be (without using my own particular technique) I advise them to forget everything they have learned about stroke technique, setup, straight-back, straight-through and all that crap, and simply tell them to get on a decent sized carpet or their local putting green and learn to NATURALLY hit balls to a specific distance target, which is two tee pegs in the form of a two foot wide goal post, while using their right hand as if they are rolling the ball by hand.
No thinking at all about accuracy, the objective is to stop all the balls as close to the goal line as consistently as possible.
Once they have perfected one set distance, then double it, and keep at it until they have that distance mastered. The two distances I normally recommend are 10 feet and 30 feet.
Onle when they have mastered this should they even begin to think about setup, shoulder action and all that stuff, that will ALWAYS distract from learning correct distance control if taught before the student is distance proficient.
If a students learns this way, you will find they have learned natural right hand control of the putter speed and that is important later on.
Once they have learned this the key is to integrate a method of squaring the putterface at impact WITHOUT interfering with the natural putter speed control they have become highly proficient at.
As past gurus have found out, this is very difficult. Using shoulder movement, tilt'rock etc., although highly used, is not that great at consistently delivering the club back to the ball correctly. Watch any round of golf on the TV. Watch how many times they push and pull strokes, and this is with lifetimes of practice at trying NOT to push and pull....
Also the mechanics of this type of motion interferes with the natural throwing motion of the right hand/arm, needed to maintain that high level of distance control..
So where is the answer? How do you make a stroke, and get the putter blade back PRECISELY to the correct impact position WITHOUT compromising the natural control of the putter speed?...
Precisely...but I would like to change it to read "the correct line"...
Unfortunately, just having a good putting stroke is not the end of it...
If you took a raw beginner and gave them the best stroke in the world, would they make putts?...probably not...and they would probably not become as good a putter as you would think either.
It's the differnce between learning to throw and learning to catch. Which comes first?
People will generally learn to catch only after they have learned to throw, simply because they have assimilated some feeling for velocity and trajectory.
The same with putting. If you want to be a great putter, it is no use (and in fact detrimental) learning a great technique before you have learned to control the speed to a very high degree of accuracy and consistency. This is where most teaching goes wrong. They teach the wrong thing first.
If anyone ever asks me how they can be the best putter they can be (without using my own particular technique) I advise them to forget everything they have learned about stroke technique, setup, straight-back, straight-through and all that crap, and simply tell them to get on a decent sized carpet or their local putting green and learn to NATURALLY hit balls to a specific distance target, which is two tee pegs in the form of a two foot wide goal post, while using their right hand as if they are rolling the ball by hand.
No thinking at all about accuracy, the objective is to stop all the balls as close to the goal line as consistently as possible.
Once they have perfected one set distance, then double it, and keep at it until they have that distance mastered. The two distances I normally recommend are 10 feet and 30 feet.
Onle when they have mastered this should they even begin to think about setup, shoulder action and all that stuff, that will ALWAYS distract from learning correct distance control if taught before the student is distance proficient.
If a students learns this way, you will find they have learned natural right hand control of the putter speed and that is important later on.
Once they have learned this the key is to integrate a method of squaring the putterface at impact WITHOUT interfering with the natural putter speed control they have become highly proficient at.
As past gurus have found out, this is very difficult. Using shoulder movement, tilt'rock etc., although highly used, is not that great at consistently delivering the club back to the ball correctly. Watch any round of golf on the TV. Watch how many times they push and pull strokes, and this is with lifetimes of practice at trying NOT to push and pull....
Also the mechanics of this type of motion interferes with the natural throwing motion of the right hand/arm, needed to maintain that high level of distance control..
So where is the answer? How do you make a stroke, and get the putter blade back PRECISELY to the correct impact position WITHOUT compromising the natural control of the putter speed?...
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Damon Lucas
Super Moderator
Puttmad,
I agree with you 100% about learning speed control first.
I don't necessarily agree with you about a shoulder stroke versus your right hand dominated stroke. The easy argument is asking why would most tour players use a shoulder stroke and very few ...use a right hand stroke!
Perhaps some better arguments might include relating the use of the slower moving muscles of the back, stomach, or shoulders to gravity, or at least a smooth tempo, versus using the faster and more volatile muscles in the hand and wrists.
Actually, before continuing much further, if you're trying to posit a different stroke technique than that 'commonly' used, surely the onus of compelling one to use a right hand stroke technique should be yours to prove. And not by saying that you say so!
Regards,
Damon
I agree with you 100% about learning speed control first.
I don't necessarily agree with you about a shoulder stroke versus your right hand dominated stroke. The easy argument is asking why would most tour players use a shoulder stroke and very few ...use a right hand stroke!
Perhaps some better arguments might include relating the use of the slower moving muscles of the back, stomach, or shoulders to gravity, or at least a smooth tempo, versus using the faster and more volatile muscles in the hand and wrists.
Actually, before continuing much further, if you're trying to posit a different stroke technique than that 'commonly' used, surely the onus of compelling one to use a right hand stroke technique should be yours to prove. And not by saying that you say so!
Regards,
Damon
....
Damon,
I think you may find that many players, although using a shoulder action, do use right hand control (in fact I saw Leadbetter saynig that on TV the other day, but then again, what does he know....), it's just that it looks like their shoulders are controlling the stroke...you'll need to ask them...
Re
"Perhaps some better arguments might include relating the use of the slower moving muscles of the back, stomach, or shoulders to gravity, or at least a smooth tempo, versus using the faster and more volatile muscles in the hand and wrists."
It would seem that way, wouldn't it? But why would you want to use a shoulder turn to peform what is basically a 4-6 inch hand movement? Using a shoulder turn for that small action is like using an elephant gun to shoot flies....
But ask yourself. If I ask you to roll a ball up to the hole by hand what do you do? Now try the same thing using a shoulder turn. And when you rolled the ball by hand, did it feel "un-smooth?"
The shoulder turn has one purpose. It is supposed to re-square the club at impact. It has absolutely NOTHING AT ALL to contribute to moving the putter at the correct speed...
We (golfers, pros included) make it work because we have been offered nothing better, and now it is ingrained in the golfer's psyche as a "must." But I know for a fact it is not essential or even neccessary at all.
My blade at impact is accurate to 1/10th of a degree and I do not use a shoulder turn/tilt/rock or anything of that fashion. If my shoulders move at all, it is in reaction to the intent of my right hand.
As for proving anything, I don't have to do anything of the sort. All I can do is make suggestions, which you can talk about all day, or you can go and try.. You cannot be handed knowledge, you have to claim it for yourself...
Have fun...
Damon,
I think you may find that many players, although using a shoulder action, do use right hand control (in fact I saw Leadbetter saynig that on TV the other day, but then again, what does he know....
), it's just that it looks like their shoulders are controlling the stroke...you'll need to ask them... Re
"Perhaps some better arguments might include relating the use of the slower moving muscles of the back, stomach, or shoulders to gravity, or at least a smooth tempo, versus using the faster and more volatile muscles in the hand and wrists."
It would seem that way, wouldn't it? But why would you want to use a shoulder turn to peform what is basically a 4-6 inch hand movement? Using a shoulder turn for that small action is like using an elephant gun to shoot flies....
But ask yourself. If I ask you to roll a ball up to the hole by hand what do you do? Now try the same thing using a shoulder turn. And when you rolled the ball by hand, did it feel "un-smooth?"
The shoulder turn has one purpose. It is supposed to re-square the club at impact. It has absolutely NOTHING AT ALL to contribute to moving the putter at the correct speed...
We (golfers, pros included) make it work because we have been offered nothing better, and now it is ingrained in the golfer's psyche as a "must." But I know for a fact it is not essential or even neccessary at all.
My blade at impact is accurate to 1/10th of a degree and I do not use a shoulder turn/tilt/rock or anything of that fashion. If my shoulders move at all, it is in reaction to the intent of my right hand.
As for proving anything, I don't have to do anything of the sort. All I can do is make suggestions, which you can talk about all day, or you can go and try.. You cannot be handed knowledge, you have to claim it for yourself...
Have fun...
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birdie_man
New
I like using my right hand (no jokes please) but that's just me.
It works best when I stroke. (no jokes please)
It works best when I stroke. (no jokes please)
Jim Kobylinski
Super Moderator
Very true, your way might work well and i don't doubt you have success with it but that doesn't mean mine is wrong and creates the problems you say because it does not. That's what i'm trying to say. Using my forefinger pressure method actually REDUCES my student's tendencies to actaully jab and yip at the ball. The problem is it's hard to type through the net the amount of "pressure" i'm talking about.
That's great, and it's funny that you bring that up because part of my putting lesson is to make my students putt with their eyes closed to develop their own natural rythym and basically let their brain do it and not let their eyes try and misinterpret the information. All you have to do is line them up, tell them to close their eyes and if they stroke it how i tell them it's in the hole everytime. (assuming correct speed of course)
Well...since we are going to "measure" ahem, hehe, I went to the Chicago Golf show a few years back and checked out the putting tutor by Pelz (great aid by the way). Puts the ball about 5-6 inches behind a set of brass balls that are on little indentations on a plastic board to create "gates." I had the guys there put it on the "tour" setting where these is basically an eyelash between the brass balls and the golf ball. I didn't once knock the balls off the plate and made i think 7-8 out of 10 putts from roughly 8 feet. It was a nasty curling one too. The rep said that he's helped demo that product for pros during tournaments and he said that most wouldn't be able to hit 10 putts in a row regardless of the length of putt without knocking those brass balls off at least once.
I have other stories as well too but this isn't about me being a great putter or you being a great putter it's about making our STUDENTS great putters. You have a way that works and i accept that and i have a way that definately works, what i disagree with is what you say will happen with how i teach it.
See above about what i really disagree on.
Don't get all pissy. You are the one who said that my way will:
"...will be compromising your putting efficiency by switching attention during the putting stroke, i.e. "left-finger, right-finger." There is too much to think about without having to add an additional swing "thought."...
Plus the fact, if you pressure the forefingers in any way, you are applying a high amount of leverage on the other hand, which will make the wrists break more easily..."
Thats a pretty rash judgement by someone who may not quite understand what i'm trying to do is it not? I never said that your way won't work, ever. I'm just defending my method which i feel i have the right to do.
Damon Lucas
Super Moderator
I think you may find that many players, although using a shoulder action, do use right hand control (in fact I saw Leadbetter saynig that on TV the other day, but then again, what does he know....), it's just that it looks like their shoulders are controlling the stroke...you'll need to ask them
How do you know??
It would seem that way, wouldn't it? But why would you want to use a shoulder turn to peform what is basically a 4-6 inch hand movement? Using a shoulder turn for that small action is like using an elephant gun to shoot flies....
Alternately, why would you use hand motion and the inherant difficulties in controlling the rotation of the muscles in the right forearm as well as the multitude of fast twitch muscles?
The shoulder turn has one purpose. It is supposed to re-square the club at impact. It has absolutely NOTHING AT ALL to contribute to moving the putter at the correct speed...
Totally disagree!!!
Preparation for a shoulder stroke has many benefits in squaring your head/eyes position as a superior means for aim.
It aids significantly in efforts to re-squaring club at impact.
It is the most efficient means for controlling a two handed/two arms stroke as it pertains to tempo and timing, and hence speed control ....I believe ...as do one or two others.
We (golfers, pros included) make it work because we have been offered nothing better, and now it is ingrained in the golfer's psyche as a "must." But I know for a fact it is not essential or even neccessary at all.
Great! As discussed previously, Brian, Jim, or myself wouldn't be the types of pros to inflict any of our 'preferences' on you if you feel that you are as precise as you say you are and as good as you say you are. We are very interested in your opinions, ESPECIALLY if prominant others, or valid science backs up your claims.
having fun,
How do you know??
It would seem that way, wouldn't it? But why would you want to use a shoulder turn to peform what is basically a 4-6 inch hand movement? Using a shoulder turn for that small action is like using an elephant gun to shoot flies....
Alternately, why would you use hand motion and the inherant difficulties in controlling the rotation of the muscles in the right forearm as well as the multitude of fast twitch muscles?
The shoulder turn has one purpose. It is supposed to re-square the club at impact. It has absolutely NOTHING AT ALL to contribute to moving the putter at the correct speed...
Totally disagree!!!
Preparation for a shoulder stroke has many benefits in squaring your head/eyes position as a superior means for aim.
It aids significantly in efforts to re-squaring club at impact.
It is the most efficient means for controlling a two handed/two arms stroke as it pertains to tempo and timing, and hence speed control ....I believe ...as do one or two others.
We (golfers, pros included) make it work because we have been offered nothing better, and now it is ingrained in the golfer's psyche as a "must." But I know for a fact it is not essential or even neccessary at all.
Great! As discussed previously, Brian, Jim, or myself wouldn't be the types of pros to inflict any of our 'preferences' on you if you feel that you are as precise as you say you are and as good as you say you are. We are very interested in your opinions, ESPECIALLY if prominant others, or valid science backs up your claims.
having fun,
Jim Kobylinski
Super Moderator
I agree as well that speed is more important than line because the speed DICTATES the line you will putt on.
Students should learn speed first and then we can correct the mechanics.
....
Note the word "may." Perhaps ask Leadbetter, or his students...
I already answered that one Damon...maybe you missed it..
That's a broad statement ....any correct setup procedure will cover the above adequately, no matter what type of stroke you are going to use. This is not the exclusive territory of the "shoulder stroke."
You can believe what you like Damon....but until you've tried chocolate, how would you know what it tastes like?..
I'll leave thi answer to the opinion one of my students..
"To this day, I've never seen your method revealed in any books or
magazine articles -- which means that either the pros refuse to
acknowledge your work, or more likely, they feel like I do and that
they're not about to help their competitors or the amateurs they write for!"
Damon, I always get big BIG resistance from the putting "establishment." Why?
Well if they find out I am right, it undermines just about eveything they have ever believed about the correct traditional putting action. And would they want to admit that maybe they were wrong? How can they then go to a student and say, "Try it this way" and the student turns around and says, "But you said do it THIS way before."....
A bit like when all the "authorities" thought the world was flat.....
Is this scientific enough?
http://www.putting-instruction.co.uk/Puttlab/Puttlab.html
Unfortunately, the analysis system doesn't show up distance control as prominently as I would like (there is no official correlation of how far the putt goes for their putter speed logs), as that is where I am really strong...perhaps you can find me a putting laboratory facility which covers precise distance control AND accuracy of strike....now that would be an enjoyable session....
Note the word "may." Perhaps ask Leadbetter, or his students...
I already answered that one Damon...maybe you missed it..
That's a broad statement ....any correct setup procedure will cover the above adequately, no matter what type of stroke you are going to use. This is not the exclusive territory of the "shoulder stroke."
You can believe what you like Damon....but until you've tried chocolate, how would you know what it tastes like?..
I'll leave thi answer to the opinion one of my students..
"To this day, I've never seen your method revealed in any books or
magazine articles -- which means that either the pros refuse to
acknowledge your work, or more likely, they feel like I do and that
they're not about to help their competitors or the amateurs they write for!"
Damon, I always get big BIG resistance from the putting "establishment." Why?
Well if they find out I am right, it undermines just about eveything they have ever believed about the correct traditional putting action. And would they want to admit that maybe they were wrong? How can they then go to a student and say, "Try it this way" and the student turns around and says, "But you said do it THIS way before."....
A bit like when all the "authorities" thought the world was flat.....
Is this scientific enough?
http://www.putting-instruction.co.uk/Puttlab/Puttlab.html
Unfortunately, the analysis system doesn't show up distance control as prominently as I would like (there is no official correlation of how far the putt goes for their putter speed logs), as that is where I am really strong...perhaps you can find me a putting laboratory facility which covers precise distance control AND accuracy of strike....now that would be an enjoyable session....
.....
Damon try this:
Put the tip your right index finger on the horizontal bar the letter "A" below. Then move it to the horizontal bar of the letter "B" and then move it back to "A"
A.....................................................................................B
Did you use a shoulder turn?.........
Damon try this:
Put the tip your right index finger on the horizontal bar the letter "A" below. Then move it to the horizontal bar of the letter "B" and then move it back to "A"
A.....................................................................................B
Did you use a shoulder turn?.........
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Damon try this:
Put the tip your right index finger on the horizontal bar the letter "A" below. Then move it to the horizontal bar of the letter "B" and then move it back to "A"
A.....................................................................................B
Did you use a shoulder turn?.........
That is not even relevant. BOTH HANDS are on the club and must move simultaneously.
So clap your hands together, and move them back from a to b. NOW do you use shoulder turn???
.....
No...
Tell me Ringer, if both hands are on the club, how could they NOT move simultaneously?....
Ringer, are you sitting at your desk?
Sit upright and put something small directly on top of the the front edge of the desk right in front of you.
You will be able to reach it with both hands while both your upper arms are pointing directly down to the ground.
Now put your hands together, pick up the object and move it 6 inches to the right and put it back down on the desk.
Did you use your shoulders?....
No...
Tell me Ringer, if both hands are on the club, how could they NOT move simultaneously?....
Ringer, are you sitting at your desk?
Sit upright and put something small directly on top of the the front edge of the desk right in front of you.
You will be able to reach it with both hands while both your upper arms are pointing directly down to the ground.
Now put your hands together, pick up the object and move it 6 inches to the right and put it back down on the desk.
Did you use your shoulders?....
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