Fred Couples and happy slices

[Thomogolf]

Have just studied NHA 2.0 which again is another great cotribution to golfdom and learnt even more from this forum Thanks Brian. Apart from the strong grip and extra fanned backswing is Fred Couples one of the best examples of NHA?
Also are there many greats (Past and Present) apart from Bobby Locke, who played or play a draw-hook on a regular basis

 

[pecky987]

Have just studied NHA 2.0 which again is another great cotribution to golfdom and learnt even more from this forum Thanks Brian. Apart from the strong grip and extra fanned backswing is Fred Couples one of the best examples of NHA?
Also are there many greats (Past and Present) apart from Bobby Locke, who played or play a draw-hook on a regular basis

david toms or fred couples. more fred couples i think personally

 

[Brian Manzella]

Great Observation!

A few logos and business card ago, my logo was a stick man in 5 positions.

It was Fred Couples.

When I used "Never Hook Again" and played my very best golf ever, I didn't "think" DT, I thought "Freddie."

 

[Jared Willerson]

But....Freddie doesn't really swing left like Toms.

 

[pecky987]

But....Freddie doesn't really swing left like Toms.

freddie uses the turning shoulder plane, and works more under the sweetspot then DT. Toms comes down slightly steeper then most and swings hard left with a hold-off release.

different methods, similar results

 

[Deadly_Scope]

Generally as a stock teeing off shot you want to hit a shot with a 'fade bias' because the deviation in direction will never be as great as a shot with a 'draw bias'. This obviously requires enough proficiency in hitting the fade over the draw but in your standard straight fairway, from a technical standpoint, is the correct shot to play.

There are times that this is not applicable as some holes are designed for playing shots with a draw bias for several different reasons.

A careful look at your dispersion patterns on the range with different stroke variations will provide you with all the details you need to know to crank the percentages and show you the best shot to play taking the considerations of the hole into account.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

Generally as a stock teeing off shot you want to hit a shot with a 'fade bias' because the deviation in direction will never be as great as a shot with a 'draw bias'. This obviously requires enough proficiency in hitting the fade over the draw but in your standard straight fairway, from a technical standpoint, is the correct shot to play.

This is a hall of fame post, never even thought of it this way

 

[Kevin Shields]

Generally as a stock teeing off shot you want to hit a shot with a 'fade bias' because the deviation in direction will never be as great as a shot with a 'draw bias'. This obviously requires enough proficiency in hitting the fade over the draw but in your standard straight fairway, from a technical standpoint, is the correct shot to play.

There are times that this is not applicable as some holes are designed for playing shots with a draw bias for several different reasons.

A careful look at your dispersion patterns on the range with different stroke variations will provide you with all the details you need to know to crank the percentages and show you the best shot to play taking the considerations of the hole into account.

How can you possibly make the assumption that a fade has less deviation than a draw? If done the right way, there should be absolutely no difference in accuracy. None. I think that has become common theory because alot of good players "hold off" the face for a fade and have left arm pop out and underplane face roll for a draw. If that's the case, a fade would be more accurate, in theory.

 

[Bigwill]

Generally as a stock teeing off shot you want to hit a shot with a 'fade bias' because the deviation in direction will never be as great as a shot with a 'draw bias'. This obviously requires enough proficiency in hitting the fade over the draw but in your standard straight fairway, from a technical standpoint, is the correct shot to play.

There are times that this is not applicable as some holes are designed for playing shots with a draw bias for several different reasons.

A careful look at your dispersion patterns on the range with different stroke variations will provide you with all the details you need to know to crank the percentages and show you the best shot to play taking the considerations of the hole into account.

I've noticed that when I'm fading the ball, it dosen't move as much (or as quickly) as when I'm drawing the ball. Maybe because of the factors that Kevin points out (holding off the face, no pop-out or underplane face roll)? I dunno, but I do know that the ball stays "between the uprights" better when I'm trying to play with a fade.

So, come on with that Soft Fade vid, Brian!

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

How can you possibly make the assumption that a fade has less deviation than a draw? If done the right way, there should be absolutely no difference in accuracy. None. I think that has become common theory because alot of good players "hold off" the face for a fade and have left arm pop out and underplane face roll for a draw. If that's the case, a fade would be more accurate, in theory.

IMO you are both right, as you say if done absolutely correctly i would agree no difference. However every shot has tendencies and from my experience; people who hit fades tend to hit higher shots that spin a bit more than the people who draw it.

If you accidentally "under spin" a draw by delofting too much it will turn into a quick snapper where if you accidentally "over spin" your fade it will balloon more up than it will slice in most cases.

Let me preface my opinion above that i am talking more about better players; obviously anyone with poor clubface control can make the ball do all kinds of wild things

 

[Deadly_Scope]

How can you possibly make the assumption that a fade has less deviation than a draw? If done the right way, there should be absolutely no difference in accuracy. None. I think that has become common theory because alot of good players "hold off" the face for a fade and have left arm pop out and underplane face roll for a draw. If that's the case, a fade would be more accurate, in theory.

When you fade the ball, the force going through the clubface and the perpendicular line from the clubface become further apart creating a more 'glancing' blow meaning less energy is transfered to the ball, meaning that the more your shot goes shorter increasing the degrees off-line. The effect as the clubface being slightly open will send the ball higher initially until the 'openness' is enough to decrease in energy transfered to bring the ball flight down again decreasing the distance and increasing the degrees off line for a reasonably executed procedure. As the line of force and the line perpendicular to the clubface become further apart will increase height (initially as mentioned previously) and spin, the ball will stop far quicker than a draw which again increases the margin of error in terms of degrees off line.

The idea is to hit a shot that if any curvature is going to occur that it will err on the side of the fade to increase your margin for error hence fade bias...

Assuming sufficient ability, this is the prefered stroke 'from a technical standpoint' on a standard straight fairway.

 

[cnadon]

Dear Brian,

Thanks for NHA. It helped me re-find my swing. One question. You said you played your best golf with NHA. Why have you moved away from it? Does it put more pressure on the lower back?

 

[Kevin Shields]

When you fade the ball, the force going through the clubface and the perpendicular line from the clubface become further apart creating a more 'glancing' blow meaning less energy is transfered to the ball, meaning that the more your shot goes shorter increasing the degrees off-line. The effect as the clubface being slightly open will send the ball higher initially until the 'openness' is enough to decrease in energy transfered to bring the ball flight down again decreasing the distance and increasing the degrees off line for a reasonably executed procedure. As the line of force and the line perpendicular to the clubface become further apart will increase height (initially as mentioned previously) and spin, the ball will stop far quicker than a draw which again increases the margin of error in terms of degrees off line.

The idea is to hit a shot that if any curvature is going to occur that it will err on the side of the fade to increase your margin for error hence fade bias...

Assuming sufficient ability, this is the prefered stroke 'from a technical standpoint' on a standard straight fairway.

Well....since you put it that way I gotcha. I still wouldnt make those types of generalizations. The technique used i believe is the deciding factor. When i miss a hook it tends to get on the ground sooner but when i used to struggle fading the ball it would start right and sometimes there would be seemingly no limit to how far right it could go.

 

[matt kluck]

Fade Bias

KS,
You are dead on.
MK

 

[Deadly_Scope]

Well....since you put it that way I gotcha. I still wouldnt make those types of generalizations. The technique used i believe is the deciding factor. When i miss a hook it tends to get on the ground sooner but when i used to struggle fading the ball it would start right and sometimes there would be seemingly no limit to how far right it could go.

Sure the technique is important. There is a few different parts to performing a shot with a fade bias and beyond the scope of this thread to go into it in too much detail however I can touch upon the more exciting stuff with regards to the release motions.

As the hand rolls into impact, inorder to continue from its arched condition at impact, the anatomy of the hand allows the left wrist to function in two ways - either around a bending + cocking left wrist as the hands rotation is held vertical or continue rolling. If you want to go with the former, oftentimes you will not roll the clubface enough leading to a fade and certainly you will never rotate the clubface enough to ever create a draw.

[media]http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Ysvg1WTT5KA[/media] Whilst this is the golf digest version of what I am saying, Johnny Millar has somewhat of a 'general idea' of what is going on in this clip.

 

[chris87]

Reason people think fades don't go offline as much:

A fade is caused from an open clubface, which has more loft than a closed clubface, which consequently will impart more backspin. Backspin mediates the effects of sidespin, so the ball will not go as far offline.

 

[birdie_man]

Yesyes + it rolls less.

 

[benhogan55]

If I try to work the ball and miss....I have a MUCH greater tendency to overcook the fade. I am using the SD pattern and can not remember any instance where I hooked it too much. What's up with that?

 

[Jared Willerson]

If I try to work the ball and miss....I have a MUCH greater tendency to overcook the fade. I am using the SD pattern and can not remember any instance where I hooked it too much. What's up with that?

You don't swing too inside out. Thus you don't lose it left, but when hitting a fade you may swing a touch too much left with too level a shoulder plane.

 

[benhogan55]

You don't swing too inside out. Thus you don't lose it left, but when hitting a fade you may swing a touch too much left with too level a shoulder plane.

so if I need a controlled fade, will more axis tilt help?