shootin4par
New
you can add butch harmon to that list, I bought his videos and found them to be filled with a lot of original and insightfull information
From the desk of Marty Irvine, and the mind of a Kool-Aid salesman.
- Thread starter Brian Manzella
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Brian Manzella
Administrator
But MY POINT is...
That there are MANY TEACHERS who have not EARNED the right to be called "elite few."
That there are MANY TEACHERS who have not EARNED the right to be called "elite few."
rchang72
New
Brian Manzella said:
rundmc said:
I think both the way people learn and how people are taught are both equally important. What about education research? There has been plenty of research on how to introduce ideas and concepts to people, but I don't see that is being used in either the AI curriculumn or the PGA. (I wish I knew more about this, maybe someone who is an educator could enlight us)
What is hardest about the whole debate is the lack of measurability and repeatability. How do you measure success in golf? Is it score? Is it hitting good shots? Is it hitting fewer bad shots? Is it hitting shots that go less offline? And everyone who plays knows that the stars align for a while and every swing is pure. But then the wheels fall off and we need to get more instruction or do more work. Was that result of poor instruction? Poor learning? Or just the rigors of a very exacting game?
The funny thing is that defining who is the best teacher is like defining who is the best family physician (which I know more about than education). There is a basic fund of knowledge and ability to diagnose problems that defines a good doctor(or instructor) from a really bad one. Definitely the one with the wider knowledge base is better than one who has limited or faulty knowledge. But beyond competence, what really sets the best doctors I have known from the rest is their ability to cultivate relationship with their patients. That relationship (usually in 5-15 minute chunks) is what cements reputations of physicians.
The question, "Can the best practices be identified?" seems to be answered yes and no. Pretty much everyone on this site agrees that TGM is the basic building blocks of the golf swing. What is debated is how to put that swing together. In medicine, there have been studies about what bits of information can be passed to a patient that will be retained. Golf instructors could do the same thing. I actually think that Golf Magazine tried that with different swing drills being given to a set group of golfers and afterward measuring the success of the tip to make a certain change.
Once you identify the best practices (or tips/drills), one could disseminate it through some forum, say this one.
I guess the hardest part about the instructor business is that learning how to be a good teacher is really best refined through a mentor/apprentice sort of relationship. Which is really hard when the apprentice could one day start stealing business from the mentor.
sorry for the long post. Just my long-winded 2 cenets.
Jim Kobylinski
Super Moderator
rchang72 said:
I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about...NONE
rchang72 said:
I understand the words that are coming out of your mouth . . . even though your lips would smooch Coach K given the chance
.But IMO you are right . . . who's to judge? BUT at the end of the day you have to write a number on the score card. So that is the yardstick . . . period. Are you shooting lower scores? And the game is much much bigger than "the swing." Hell your swing may not need to be fixed . . . maybe it's your lie angles . . . or you hit driver off of every tee . . . or you have a melt down if you make a double-bubble . . . you line up right of the target . . . you practice to play swing and not to play golf.
I want to learn how to swing yep . . . but what I really want to do is learn HOW TO PLAY. How come there ain't more lessons given on the course?
I think we have and have had PLENTY of good information from those who wish to call themselves "teachers of golf." The problem is two fold 1. Weeding out what is good for YOU and 2. Having the appropriate information communicated to you in such away that makes it easy for YOU to LEARN and EXECUTE.
I have to believe that most people are capable of playing very respectible single didgit handicap golf. But the problem is playing to the level of their capabilities . . .
BM had a very good post I think on the "other" forum where he said that he believed that the AVERAGE doofus was capable of shooting in the 70's. Now that is the kind of instructor people should want to work with REGARDLESS of whether they believe the head should move or not. If the teacher don't believe in the student it ain't gonna happen.
I think and I could be wrong that "teachers" would be much more effective in their teaching if they spent as much time on how people LEARN motor skills and how the mind works, as they do strapping computer gizmos on people and trying to figure precisely how joints move in one section of the stroke.
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Brian Manzella
Administrator
Can someone explain this one to me...
"Originally Posted by rundmc
BM had a very good post I think on the "other" forum where he said that he believed that the AVERAGE doofus was capable of shooting in the 70's. Now that is the kind of instructor people should want to work with REGARDLESS of whether they believe the head should move or not. If the teacher don't believe in the student it ain't gonna happen."
?
Sorry, I have a water-logged vacation head.
Please explain this to me, someone.
"Originally Posted by rundmc
BM had a very good post I think on the "other" forum where he said that he believed that the AVERAGE doofus was capable of shooting in the 70's. Now that is the kind of instructor people should want to work with REGARDLESS of whether they believe the head should move or not. If the teacher don't believe in the student it ain't gonna happen."
?
Sorry, I have a water-logged vacation head.
Please explain this to me, someone.
rchang72
New
Brian, really just soak your head some more and enjoy your vacation, you've deserved it.
I think what my froo-froo blue colored friend was trying to say was that you really believe that your student can be better. Some instructors want the student to feel good about themselves and just give the tip or drill of the day. Others strive for more and do more.
When I took my lesson from you, I knew that you truly and honestly believed that you could make me swing with the three imperatives. That inspired me to truly believe what you were teaching me.
I think what my froo-froo blue colored friend was trying to say was that you really believe that your student can be better. Some instructors want the student to feel good about themselves and just give the tip or drill of the day. Others strive for more and do more.
When I took my lesson from you, I knew that you truly and honestly believed that you could make me swing with the three imperatives. That inspired me to truly believe what you were teaching me.
birdie_man
New
Brian Manzella said:
I don't get it B....what's there to explain?
"It's very important that an instructor believes in his students ability to improve." (and run says that you do believe)
Brian Manzella
Administrator
Oh, Ok Birdie and Roger...
I thought it was a shot, as I am shot at a bunch.
Just a LITTLE gun shy.
I thought it was a shot, as I am shot at a bunch.
Just a LITTLE gun shy.
Brian Manzella said:
Sorry . . . about your waterhead . . . But there was a thread called Average Joe on Yoda's forum where you had a superb post about how you could take a dude with average athletic skills and make him shoot in the 70's by playing and practicing once a week. This is without a doubt what golf needs an instructor that believes and that can get the student to believe and hit shots more up to his potential regardless of whether his head moves or wrist is flat or right leg straightens or has a fonky set up etc.
Also you said that you would come up with a BLUEPRINT for Average Joe to get "there." Still waiting on that . . . BUT it was definitely and inspiring post.
Nice to see at teacher that believes in the students potential.
So . . . when you gonna hook us up with the BLUEPRINT Boss?
Brian Manzella
Administrator
Program for Golfing in the 70's
I'll try to do an outline to night.
I'll try to do an outline to night.
johngolf33
New
You may not agree with Yoda's style of teaching, but you cannot deny that the man knows TGM.
From the "other" site . . . BM Throws the Guantlet.
THESE ARE THE BM POSTS I WAS REFERENCING. THE THREAD HAD WHEELS AND UNFORTUNATELY THE TIRES WENT FLAT. IT COULDA BEEN A CONTENDA. BM BREATH SOME LIFE BACK INTO THIS BAD BOY.
How good can Joe Average get and how much time will it take?
From 25,000 hours on the tee:
Getting to make a better swing and look like a golfer - 15min. to 2hours
Breaking 100 regularly (if you never have) - less than one year
Break 90 regularly (starting from 100+) - less than 3 years
Break 80 regularly (starting from 100+) - less than 5 years
Assuming an average condition man 35-55, five lessons a year, one bucket a week in season, 20+ rounds per season.
And a good FITTED set of clubs.
Two examples of what can happen:
Worst golfer I ever taught, A.D.
He could not have possibly broke 113 on a 113 slope course (national mean).
He took 47 lessons from October 1990 to April 1991.
On a par 70 course, he shot 89, putting poorly.
A tennis pro came to me. Brian can you get me to break 80 in 4 months. His lowest score in only about 10 total rounds ever was 98.
He took 4 lessons a wek for 4 months and practiced a LOT.
He had 5 tries to break 80 to win his bet with a pal.
On a tough par-72, 7000 yds., he shot 76 in the third round.
It CAN be done.
Another point I should have made:
Both of these occured in 1991.
I teach 45,678 times better now than then.
More recent....13 year old came to me in September. He had never broke 90 in a real tournament.
Didn't own a driver, played with a junk set of ladies clubs.
Couldn't hit a good chip shot.
7 months later, shot 73 in tournaments—twice.
As far as any details go.....hmmm......I might have to do a video
HOW 'BOUT THAT VIDEO CATDADDY??????
THESE ARE THE BM POSTS I WAS REFERENCING. THE THREAD HAD WHEELS AND UNFORTUNATELY THE TIRES WENT FLAT. IT COULDA BEEN A CONTENDA. BM BREATH SOME LIFE BACK INTO THIS BAD BOY.
How good can Joe Average get and how much time will it take?
From 25,000 hours on the tee:
Getting to make a better swing and look like a golfer - 15min. to 2hours
Breaking 100 regularly (if you never have) - less than one year
Break 90 regularly (starting from 100+) - less than 3 years
Break 80 regularly (starting from 100+) - less than 5 years
Assuming an average condition man 35-55, five lessons a year, one bucket a week in season, 20+ rounds per season.
And a good FITTED set of clubs.
Two examples of what can happen:
Worst golfer I ever taught, A.D.
He could not have possibly broke 113 on a 113 slope course (national mean).
He took 47 lessons from October 1990 to April 1991.
On a par 70 course, he shot 89, putting poorly.
A tennis pro came to me. Brian can you get me to break 80 in 4 months. His lowest score in only about 10 total rounds ever was 98.
He took 4 lessons a wek for 4 months and practiced a LOT.
He had 5 tries to break 80 to win his bet with a pal.
On a tough par-72, 7000 yds., he shot 76 in the third round.
It CAN be done.
Another point I should have made:
Both of these occured in 1991.
I teach 45,678 times better now than then.
More recent....13 year old came to me in September. He had never broke 90 in a real tournament.
Didn't own a driver, played with a junk set of ladies clubs.
Couldn't hit a good chip shot.
7 months later, shot 73 in tournaments—twice.
As far as any details go.....hmmm......I might have to do a video
HOW 'BOUT THAT VIDEO CATDADDY??????
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