Fwd Lean vs Rotation about the Coupling Point

[blehnhard]

From many of the various threads concerning the "New Release", Forward Lean (FL), and moving the bottom of the handle past the top of the handle (rotation about the CP) - I believe that we need to take the following points away from all of this discussion:

The club is (or should sould be) in some state of "FL" at the beginning of the downswing and that for most good swings this state will be somewhat constant until the club shaft reaches "last parallel" prior to impact. From this point until impact (and past) the amount of FL will continue to decrease until the club shaft reaches (and passes) its in line position with the leading arm. The ball may be struck prior to reaching the in line position - result is FL at impact. The important point is that the FL is in a state of decreasing - never "held". "Holding" any amount of FL would not allow maximum speed at impact. There would certainly be many types of shots where "holding" may produce the proper "D Plane" alignments for the shot at hand, but they would not be optimum "speed" situations.

So in a optimal speed situation, FL is always changing during the release phase. To optimize speed, the rotation about the coupling point (bottom going past the top) must be unimpeded (free wheeling). As long as impact occurs prior to the club reaching "in line" there will be some amount of FL at impact.

The only confusion I have is at what point in the swing does one apply the torque to begin moving the bottom of the handle past the top of the handle given the accepted theory that the clubhead is a "free moving object" at some point in the swing.

I know that in my last couple of practice sessions, working on "Lining it Up" at impact is starting to allow me to get 4 and 5 irons more up into the air with more carry. I actually feel that I try to "Line it Up" just prior to impact - almost a feeling of hitting "up" on the ball. As long as the "up" is felt in the hands it works - the club head is still moving "down" until past "line up".

Bruce

 

[bluebird]

Here's my take on the when to apply question. If one waits too long to apply the outward torque, then one can run out of time to apply it. Considering that the club-head will actually jackknife inwards when your hands start attaining some velocity, there will be a need to counter this with some amount of opposing torque. It's my belief that nothing is thrown away even when one tries to, if the hand speed downwards is fast enough. It should be noted that it may be different for each of us. Most of what I feel is not so much the outwards torque but the opposite, the inward pull after the downward part of the swing. So it is a timed combination of both.

 

[Brian Manzella]

...moving the bottom of the handle past the top of the handle (rotation about the CP)

In the final phase of the downswing, the club is rotating about a point WAY HIGHER than the coupling point.

Coupling Point rotation happens more in the second phase.

Just clarifying.

The club is (or should sould be) in some state of "FL" at the beginning of the downswing and that for most good swings this state will be somewhat constant until the club shaft reaches "last parallel" prior to impact. From this point until impact (and past) the amount of FL will continue to decrease until the club shaft reaches (and passes) its in line position with the leading arm. The ball may be struck prior to reaching the in line position - result is FL at impact. The important point is that the FL is in a state of decreasing - never "held". "Holding" any amount of FL would not allow maximum speed at impact. There would certainly be many types of shots where "holding" may produce the proper "D Plane" alignments for the shot at hand, but they would not be optimum "speed" situations.

So in a optimal speed situation, FL is always changing during the release phase. To optimize speed, the rotation about the coupling point (bottom going past the top) must be unimpeded (free wheeling). As long as impact occurs prior to the club reaching "in line" there will be some amount of FL at impact.[/quote]

Pure gold there Bruce!!!

The only confusion I have is at what point in the swing does one apply the torque to begin moving the bottom of the handle past the top of the handle given the accepted theory that the clubhead is a "free moving object" at some point in the swing.

When do you apply the torque?

or

When does the angle get significantly reduced?

I know that in my last couple of practice sessions, working on "Lining it Up" at impact is starting to allow me to get 4 and 5 irons more up into the air with more carry. I actually feel that I try to "Line it Up" just prior to impact - almost a feeling of hitting "up" on the ball. As long as the "up" is felt in the hands it works - the club head is still moving "down" until past "line up".

Great stuff!!

 

[Todd Dugan]

From many of the various threads concerning the "New Release", Forward Lean (FL), and moving the bottom of the handle past the top of the handle (rotation about the CP) - I believe that we need to take the following points away from all of this discussion:

The club is (or should sould be) in some state of "FL" at the beginning of the downswing and that for most good swings this state will be somewhat constant until the club shaft reaches "last parallel" prior to impact. From this point until impact (and past) the amount of FL will continue to decrease until the club shaft reaches (and passes) its in line position with the leading arm. The ball may be struck prior to reaching the in line position - result is FL at impact. The important point is that the FL is in a state of decreasing - never "held". "Holding" any amount of FL would not allow maximum speed at impact. There would certainly be many types of shots where "holding" may produce the proper "D Plane" alignments for the shot at hand, but they would not be optimum "speed" situations.

So in a optimal speed situation, FL is always changing during the release phase. To optimize speed, the rotation about the coupling point (bottom going past the top) must be unimpeded (free wheeling). As long as impact occurs prior to the club reaching "in line" there will be some amount of FL at impact.

The only confusion I have is at what point in the swing does one apply the torque to begin moving the bottom of the handle past the top of the handle given the accepted theory that the clubhead is a "free moving object" at some point in the swing.

I know that in my last couple of practice sessions, working on "Lining it Up" at impact is starting to allow me to get 4 and 5 irons more up into the air with more carry. I actually feel that I try to "Line it Up" just prior to impact - almost a feeling of hitting "up" on the ball. As long as the "up" is felt in the hands it works - the club head is still moving "down" until past "line up".

Bruce

Spot on, Bruce. To answer your late question..........most people are not "strong" enough to apply a torque at the wrist hinge that would increase clubhead velocity at impact. So............a fine model sees the release timing as that of a gravity-powered double pendulum model. So.............release the club about the hands as fast as you can......BUT, the feeling should be that THAT torque is never able to "overtake" the hand torque about the body until well after collision.

 

[natep]

I actually feel that I try to "Line it Up" just prior to impact - almost a feeling of hitting "up" on the ball. As long as the "up" is felt in the hands it works - the club head is still moving "down" until past "line up".

I love that "hitting up" feeling. I can hit towering high 1-irons from the fairway that will hold on the greens with that feel. That shot's just not possible for me if there's any amount of dragging going on.

 

[SteveT]

......... To optimize speed, the rotation about the coupling point (bottom going past the top) must be unimpeded (free wheeling).

....................................................

The only confusion I have is at what point in the swing does one apply the torque to begin moving the bottom of the handle past the top of the handle given the accepted theory that the clubhead is a "free moving object" at some point in the swing.

I know that in my last couple of practice sessions, working on "Lining it Up" at impact is starting to allow me to get 4 and 5 irons more up into the air with more carry. I actually feel that I try to "Line it Up" just prior to impact - almost a feeling of hitting "up" on the ball. As long as the "up" is felt in the hands it works - the club head is still moving "down" until past "line up".

[Added emphasis mine...]

Bruce... I've isolated three of your comments to get a better understanding of your thinking. In the first statement, you say the club handle must be in a state of freewheeling rotation in final stage of release, which implies no added hand torque around the coupling point is needed nor advisable (per mandrin).

Then in the second statement, you are searching for a torque to apply when the clubhead is already in the final stages of release, perhaps 2 or 3 feet from impact, and when the top and bottom of the handle are rotating quickly around the coupling point after passing the right rear hip.

Your reference to the clubhead as a "free moving object", (or "dynamically disconnected" while the shaft tip is flexing just prior to impact) doesn't seem to be a relevant factor since the entire club is freewheeling somewhere about the coupling point.

Do you see the problem (I don't want to say 'error' or 'contradiction') in your explanation of what you think is happening technically?

Then in the final statement, you share your "feel" and speak of "Lining it Up" which I assume is your clubhead path, or is it your hand path? Your observation of ""up" is felt in the hands and it works" suggest to me that you are describing the feedback feel of centripetal force or "going normal". I'm trying to relate your "feel" to the physics of the swing.

Perhaps if you analyzed your feedback feel in your hands throughout the downswing, or just after the clubshaft reaches vertical to horizontal, and then to impact, your thoughts about forward lean, the path of the coupling point, freewheeling, torque, and going normal into impact could better resolve your questions.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Spot on, Bruce. To answer your late question..........most people are not "strong" enough to apply a torque at the wrist hinge that would increase clubhead velocity at impact. So............a fine model sees the release timing as that of a gravity-powered double pendulum model. So.............release the club about the hands as fast as you can......BUT, the feeling should be that THAT torque is never able to "overtake" the hand torque about the body until well after collision.

I respectfully disagree.

 

[SteveT]

Spot on, Bruce. To answer your late question..........most people are not "strong" enough to apply a torque at the wrist hinge that would increase clubhead velocity at impact. So............a fine model sees the release timing as that of a gravity-powered double pendulum model. So.............release the club about the hands as fast as you can......BUT, the feeling should be that THAT torque is never able to "overtake" the hand torque about the body until well after collision.

I respectfully disagree.

I too found Todd's comments puzzling when I read them last night. Perhaps he can expand on his comments, because now they seem to be a mix of dubious science and quizzical feel.

 

[Todd Dugan]

I respectfully disagree.

Well.........you're the boss. What I'm alluding to is that the lower rod of a double pendulum will line back up with the upper rod with no force applied at the hinge between them. So whatever torques you apply, the release timing should still closely follow the model.

 

[SteveT]

Well.........you're the boss. What I'm alluding to is that the lower rod of a double pendulum will line back up with the upper rod with no force applied at the hinge between them. So whatever torques you apply, the release timing should still closely follow the model.

Yes, a free swinging double pendulum will behave as you say, but the only force acting on the double pendulum is the force of gravity.

The golfswing lead arm and club may look like a double pendulum, but it's subject to applied forces and torques that are much more significant than the gravity force. These applied forces and torques will dynamically change the relationship of the upper and lower segments quite dissimilar to a free swinging pendulum.

So your conclusion: "So whatever torques you apply, the release timing should still closely follow the model." is not applicable to the golfswing.

 

[Todd Dugan]

Yes, a free swinging double pendulum will behave as you say, but the only force acting on the double pendulum is the force of gravity.

The golfswing lead arm and club may look like a double pendulum, but it's subject to applied forces and torques that are much more significant than the gravity force. These applied forces and torques will dynamically change the relationship of the upper and lower segments quite dissimilar to a free swinging pendulum.

So your conclusion: "So whatever torques you apply, the release timing should still closely follow the model." is not applicable to the golfswing.

You're absolutely correct, Steve. Let me clarify by saying that the golfer should line-up the two rods at or very close to the time point that the Double P does. That's the way most great ball-strikers do it. THIS is the aspect of the release timing that I am refering to...........the line-up.