Game imporvement vs Players Irons

[GeoffDickson]

I currently hit Callaway X16s with a handicap of 6 (with a vision of getting to 3). I have no trouble ‘working’ the ball either way. The 6 handicap seems to put me in that 0-8 handicap zone where manufacturers (and retailers) are telling me that i should be hitting a players irons. I am not buying it.

Players irons have a reputation increased workability but less forgiveness. I understand how a game improvement items resists rotation for off-centre hits.

Questions:
Is it true that players irons have increased workability?

If yes, then how?...How do players irons assist a golfer get the ideal balance between the variable that underpin workability: angle of attack, swing path, club path and club face angle?

What gains could I reasonably expect from a set of players irons? Is it possible that game improvement irons will make my journey to a 3 handicap more difficult

 

[jpeck]

I currently hit Callaway X16s with a handicap of 6 (with a vision of getting to 3). I have no trouble ‘working’ the ball either way. The 6 handicap seems to put me in that 0-8 handicap zone where manufacturers (and retailers) are telling me that i should be hitting a players irons. I am not buying it.

Players irons have a reputation increased workability but less forgiveness. I understand how a game improvement items resists rotation for off-centre hits.

Questions:
Is it true that players irons have increased workability?

If yes, then how?...How do players irons assist a golfer get the ideal balance between the variable that underpin workability: angle of attack, swing path, club path and club face angle?

What gains could I reasonably expect from a set of players irons? Is it possible that game improvement irons will make my journey to a 3 handicap more difficult

If your old clubs suit you there's no need to get new ones. You can get to a 3 or a +3 with what you have, so long as they fit you properly.

Players' irons can be easy to work, but you can fade or draw the ball with GI irons too, they're just designed to generate a straighter shot on bad hits. I prefer blades because if I mis-hit a shot it might be short right or long left...not in the next zip code.

If your old clubs are OK you'd be better off spending the money on lessons.

 

[BrendanC]

Recently ditched Callaway X-14s for Mizuno MP-32s. I just got to dislike the Callaways and I felt they weren't helping my swing or my game in general.

I can't hit the MP-32s anywhere near as far (NB the lofts are slightly weaker). With the X-14s I hit a 190-yard 6-iron with a hard swing. With the 32s I'm closer to 165. Pitching wedge has dropped from about 135 yards to 110/115. I really have to focus on making good contact.

Off-centre/poor swings I get a short mishit, but a well struck iron shot goes about where I want it too. Over water, I might take a little extra club and make extra sure I make good contact. Good swings/flushes with the X-14s had less predictable results. Never got any real pinseekers with them.....

As jpeck says, I find the mishits to be much more playable and the irons to be generally better for scoring.

The other huge difference is chipping. I'm not sure about the 16s and what the bounce is like on them but chipping with the X-14s was a nightmare: they simply could not handle tight lies due and the clubhead would not slide under the ball correctly. The 32s are a joy to chip and play half shots with. I'd imagine this goes for other blades as well.

 

[Richie3Jack]

Questions:
Is it true that players irons have increased workability?

Curving the ball? I don't think so.

Trajectory height? I think so.

To me, the modern ball is hard to work the curve, period.

If yes, then how?...How do players irons assist a golfer get the ideal balance between the variable that underpin workability: angle of attack, swing path, club path and club face angle?

Probably the offset is the claim

What gains could I reasonably expect from a set of players irons? Is it possible that game improvement irons will make my journey to a 3 handicap more difficult

I play blades because the mass is mostly located behind the sweetspot. I believe this fully...if you hit 10 shots on the sweetspot with blades and 10 shots on the sweetspot with cavity backs, your blade shots will be more accurate and precise. They will also go the same distance provided the specs are the same. I practice, play, research, etc. with golf so I can consistently hit the ball on the sweetspot. Thus, I want the clubs that will provide me with the best results when I hit the sweetspot. I don't practice, play, research, etc. to hit playable shots on mis-hits.

Plus, for me...mis-hits with blades really are not that bad.

And if you have a pretty good idea about what you're doing in the swing, you can more easily spot your flaws with blades because of the feedback.

For me, if I'm a little off...the feedback from blades will tell me that I'm off and I can still shoot a decent score for 1-3 rounds. But, I'll need to get back to videotaping my swing and try to spot the flaws. After awhile I can spot the same things that get out of whack and then I just have to re-adjust.

But, when I'm striking blades well, the performance is just better.





3JACK

 

[adamscot89]

The smaller size and more concentrated mass of blades also make it easier to feel what you are doing with the club face whether its face angle or path. I also find it much easier to hit the ball consistently out of the rough. With a blade you are better able to judge your lie and evaluate how that lie is going to affect your direction and distance. Game improvement irons might allow you to hit the ball further out of bad lies but for a good player who is trying to land the ball on the green with the correct distance is not going to benefit from a club that is unpredictable at times with how far it can hit the ball. It also comes down to personal preference, there are a lot of guys on tour playing big irons like the Ping G15s instead of the i15s, more than likely with the offset removed. Pick what makes you feel confident standing over the ball and then just make sure they are custom fit for you.

 

[drewyallop]

I may be overreacting, but I believe this subject is getting a little stale. It seems to be a forum for good ball strikers/low handicappers to reaffirm that they are indeed good and that is why they play blades. I get it. Can we move on to something else?

Drew

 

[otto6457]

I may be overreacting, but I believe this subject is getting a little stale. It seems to be a forum for good ball strikers/low handicappers to reaffirm that they are indeed good and that is why they play blades. I get it. Can we move on to something else?

Drew

LOL!!

Are you saying, "It's not the arrow...it's the Indian"?

 

[gmbtempe]

Mizuno MP-63, plays and looks like blades, has offset like blades, yet just forgiving enough to help a mishit.

 

[Richie3Jack]

I may be overreacting, but I believe this subject is getting a little stale. It seems to be a forum for good ball strikers/low handicappers to reaffirm that they are indeed good and that is why they play blades. I get it. Can we move on to something else?

Drew

I encourage anybody who is serious about getting better to at least practice with blades. If they are willing to put some work in on the range and have a quality instructor I think the feedback helps them better develop their golf swing. That's not always easy. It's not easy when you think you have your swing where you want it and then the feedback tells you that your swing is off, to go back and figure out what the issues are. Most golfers say 'screw it' and are happy with how they were hitting it a week ago. But for me, I just look at it like if I don't address the issues immediately, there's too good of a chance that they may become too big of an issue and then I'll have to spend *more* time eliminating those issues down the road.

It's like Sonny said in 'A Bronx Tale'...Trouble is like a cancer. You got to get it early. Otherwise it gets big and kills you. You got to cut it out.

Personally I'd be gaming my mom's gardening equipment if I thought it could help me shoot lower scores.







3JACK

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

I encourage anybody who is serious about getting better to at least practice with blades. If they are willing to put some work in on the range and have a quality instructor I think the feedback helps them better develop their golf swing. That's not always easy. It's not easy when you think you have your swing where you want it and then the feedback tells you that your swing is off, to go back and figure out what the issues are. Most golfers say 'screw it' and are happy with how they were hitting it a week ago. But for me, I just look at it like if I don't address the issues immediately, there's too good of a chance that they may become too big of an issue and then I'll have to spend *more* time eliminating those issues down the road.

It's like Sonny said in 'A Bronx Tale'...Trouble is like a cancer. You got to get it early. Otherwise it gets big and kills you. You got to cut it out.

Personally I'd be gaming my mom's gardening equipment if I thought it could help me shoot lower scores.







3JACK

While i agree with a lot of what you say richie; this is still preposterous to me. ONLY in golf where golfers believe "it's more the arrow than the indian" does a concept like this fly. In just about any other activity you don't find the tool that makes the activity the hardest. I just laugh.

To the original poster, the main thing a more "players type" club will do for you is the following:

1) You will have better control of the height of your shots. Generally more GI clubs are geared to launch the ball higher and with more spin which is also part of the reason the lofts need to be stronger otherwise they wouldn't go anywhere. This makes hitting knockdown shots difficult.

2) You will be able to curve your shots easier.

3) You scores may or may not drop

--------------------------

If you are good at golf you can play with just about anything, there are going to be minor differences. I even have a set of Titleist 775cb GI irons and play great with them, the only thing that i find difficult is hitting low shots since i tend to hit a high ball and due to the nature of the clubhead. Here's a link to them: Titleist.com - Customer Service: Club Archive

Now don't take the above like i'm gods gift to golf, i play more GI type clubs because i don't play often and could use the help. I even remember watching a playing with the pros with Davis Love III where he said he understands why the amateur golfer always thinks the new gear will help him play better because he takes the same approach with snowboarding gear.

Find something that hits the shots you want and that you are confident with. If that happens to be blades, play blades. If it ends up being Callaway Big Berthas (Like Monty used to play) play those.

 

[Richie3Jack]

Where I differ with you on this subject, Jim...is that I don't find blades make the game the hardest for me. I'm not always 'on' with my game. But I can still play good, even great rounds of golf with blades when I don't have my A game.

It's the same reason why I enjoy practicing with persimmon. Like Trackman says...if you miss the sweetspot by 1 dimple with a driver hit 250 yards long...the ball will go offline by 10 yards. I don't think anybody can feel being 1 dimple off with any club. But 2-3 dimples...probably much more obvious of a feel with persimmon than today's modern titanium.

When it comes to blades, I want something that provides me with the best shots possible when I hit the ball on the sweetspot and something that isn't death when I miss the sweetspot by a little

I have some old 1978 MacGregor 985's that are nice when struck well, but the mis-hits are ridiculously unforgiving. So I really don't bother with them much. But the rest of the different sets of blades are reasonable on mis-hits. The Hogan sets I have that have no bounce them are tough to hit on Florida bermuda, but if I take a good swing, I can hit them extremely well. Thus, they are a good club to practice with.

But if you're not going to practice and don't really understand what your swing is about, then you're probably better off with Cavity Backs.






3JACK

 

[BrendanC]

Am I going to play GI irons just so no-one will accuse me of using something that is above my station? No.

GI irons deliver on the driving range and may get you '10 yards further' when you test them on a monitor. You may achieve something closer to 'Tour' numbers with them. But a lot of what they do is about marketing and the point of sale. This is the arena they are built for.

Hitting longer, higher shots with the club stamped with a 7 on it on the driving range is nice, but it ain't relevant to scoring. And how much of a problem is the old chestnut of 'getting the ball in the air' for most players?

If you can't get in the air with a blade, I suggest you probably can't do it with a GI iron either. Also, I would have thought less spin would help the middling player to get more playable results on poor shots.

I would love to see a good sized study of scores achieved on the course across various handicaps with blades v Cavity Backs (say 50 golfers who play 10 rounds with blades, and 10 with GIs. That's if you're reading Golf Digest).

The thinner blade makes it easier to play a variety of shots (this being the essence of scoring), and you don't get the unreliable/souped up results you get from the GI irons I have experienced. I also believe they encourage a good - precise - golf swing simply because of the way they sit behind the ball. The club demands precision - and so does the game from 150 yards and in.

Pool cue or snooker cue....which is smaller and demands more precision? Which table is it easier to pot on? (i.e. I don't play snooker with a pool cue simply because it is 'easier to hit' and capable of delivering more power).

And finally, if some pros want to play GI irons, they are welcome. But doing what some pro or other does just "because it's good enough for a pro" is a poor argument when it comes to the swing - so someone needs to tell me why it holds water for equipment.

Do I Stack and Tilt cos Aaron Baddeley or Mike Weir says so, or do I try to figure out the best way to do it with an open mind and my own powers of reason and deduction?

There are relatively serious and not widely understood issues with many modern irons and these issues are worth discussing.

 

[LDGolf]

This is the way I look at my golf gear.

1. you have to like the way your clubs look. (It doesn't matter players or GI, if you don't like standing over them you will battle them.)

2. you have to be confident with the club you have in your hands. (This can come from famililarity or belief in the type of club.)

3. fitted, fitted, fitted.

4. It's the indian not the arrow, but not every indian had the same arrow.

 

[birly-shirly]

As far as I'm concerned, this debate only has legs because the functional differences between blade and GI designs have been greatly exaggerated. As far as most iron designs go, if you like it you can most probably play it without much detriment - especially if you're pragmatic in choosing hybrids/lofted woods.

 

[mgranato]

I've done a lot of fittings, and only two guys have shown up who were close to being in optimal irons (right head, shaft, lie, weight, grip size, spin rate, and descent angle). If you want to know if a certain type of club "works" for you, go and have your performance with that club measured (preferably by someone who knows what they are doing). I've also seen a lot of egos get in the way of sound choices. You can find stuff that works for you, or find stuff that makes you work.

 

[dragon_jonh33]

I may be overreacting, but I believe this subject is getting a little stale.

 

[johnnymarlboro]

I may be overreacting, but I believe this subject is getting a little stale.

So now the spammers are just cutting and pasting stuff and not even bothering with their advertisements?

 

[rbaumgolf]

I was able to tour the Callaway HQ in Carlsbad lasty month and was tremendously impressed with the engineering and science that goes on there. I'm sure its the same at the other major manufacturers but the science behind their clubs and balls is amazing. I met their head of ball design who had a model of a Boeing 767 on his desk ( he was an aerospace engineer for Boeing before going to Callaway). The materials and designs of clubs today really DO help the player's game whether its an improvement or player's club.

 

[otto6457]

I would love to be able to walk in a place like Titleist, Callaway, or Cool Clubs without any preconceived notions or even any equipment of my own and let them tell me what clubs/shafts actually work best for me. We have no such facility within 6 hours of where I live so I'm still playing the clubs I bought in 2003. This may seem funny, but the newest club in my bag is a Ping G5 driver. And I only have that because the face on my G2 cracked and Ping sent me a G5 as a replacement. I've never even been on a launch monitor. LOL!!

I'm not sure new equipment would actually make me a better golfer, but it would be nice to know that the equipment I'm using is as good as it can be for my swing.

 

[BrendanC]

I met their head of ball design who had a model of a Boeing 767 on his desk ( he was an aerospace engineer for Boeing before going to Callaway).

Yes someone from that field would never ever make mistakes when it comes to golf/golf science!!!

(Seriously: there are separate debates about GI vs Blades as a design philosophy and the improvement in irons generally from, say, 1995-2011. It's worth keeping on the table that the GI concept is wrong/has a potential downside).