Game imporvement vs Players Irons

[Richie3Jack]

I've read 2 studies that claim something similar. MB's have a much tighter dispersion on sweetspot strikes than CB's. I also talk to a former club designer for a major OEM who now works as a consultant for another OEM and he's told me that they found the same thing about 25 years ago working with an Iron Byron type machine.

It's hard to get a definitive answer on mis-hits. But, I do believe that the *dispersion* is better with MB's on mis-hits as well. That doesn't mean the shot is actually *better* on mis-hit MB's, but the dispersion is tighter. Let's say I hit a 7-iron 175 yards when I catch it flush. If I hit it off the toe with a MB, I may hit it 155-160 yards and right of the target. That's a tight dispersion. With CB's on mis-hits I could probably hit that 7-iron 155 yards or 165 yards or a 172 yards.

Part of this reminds me of the Karlsen & Nilssen study on putting where they found that golfers 'feel' like it's much easier to aim those oversized mallet putters, but the reality is that they actually aim them worse and are more inconsistent with their aim as well. So I think a lot of it is a false sense of confidence.

Listen to 5 or 6 design guys from OEM's and it doesn't take too long to figure out that they design their clubs with the hacker who doesn't want to put the work in to get better.

The CoG is lower to make it easy for the golfer to get it up in the air instead of actually having the swing mechanics to get the ball up in the air consistently. The clubs are bigger so the golfer can hit mis-hits long. They are lighter so the golfer doesn't have to figure out how to generate clubhead speed. They are more upright to help curb the slice. The lofts are stronger to help add distance by giving a 7-iron a 5-iron loft instead of actually doing that with your swing.

It's obvious to see that they are making the clubs for the golfer who doesn't go to the driving instead of the one who does go to the driving range. I don't see how that benefits those who are willing to work to improve.





3JACK

 

[Lindsey Newman]

I completely agree with 3jack. The question that says it all to me is- "what did you hit?". The friends I play with are so freaking concerned about the number on the sole of an iron.

 

[finncox]

I completely agree with 3jack. The question that says it all to me is- "what did you hit?". Many guys I play with are so freaking concerned about the number on the sole of an iron.

This is so very true. I have to admit, I didn't even consider the loft of a club until a while after I started playing golf. I just always assumed "a 7 iron is a 7iron." Now it seems so obvious, that I'm embarrassed a little.

Not too long ago I was trying to explain to a friend of mine why he had so much of a yardage gap between his 56* SW (bought separate from his set) and his AW (came with his Nike set).........his AW was almost identical loft to my PW, and he had about a 7* gap. It had never really occurred to him either.

 

[oldpro]

I've done a lot of fittings, and only two guys have shown up who were close to being in optimal irons (right head, shaft, lie, weight, grip size, spin rate, and descent angle). If you want to know if a certain type of club "works" for you, go and have your performance with that club measured (preferably by someone who knows what they are doing). I've also seen a lot of egos get in the way of sound choices. You can find stuff that works for you, or find stuff that makes you work.

Mgranato how's your back??
I hit a Japanese Nike set of irons a few weeks ago. Absolutely game improvement clubs. However, they are forged and one club strong. The faces are pure as the driven snow...you can see the bottom back, which used to bother me but not anymore because I don't hit the ball with that side of the club anyway. Shots go the one club stronger in a hight spinning trajectory. They had some new Nippon shaft in them which was excellent...long and very straight shot that even with an off center hit still arrived the chosen distance, They are SQ now but will be in the Nike USA VR line Feb 2012...They will be my next set for sure...maybe it's the ultimate oldman's club being forged...great feel and yes easy to bend. Designed to enhance a straighter shot exactly as the balls are now designed and will advance further in that direction as the years pass by. At 75 years old it's my way of saying I'll be hitting balls at Hawksridge in 2012 with them!!

 

[Virtuoso]

Listen to 5 or 6 design guys from OEM's and it doesn't take too long to figure out that they design their clubs with the hacker who doesn't want to put the work in to get better.

Well, yes, they design for the hacker when they are selling to the hacker. Most golfers will not put the work in to get better. Some OEM's offer iron models that cover the whole spectrum- musclebacks for the studs, forged cavity for the scratch players, cast less-offsets for single digits, GI wide soles for the chops, etc, etc.

 

[Virtuoso]

Hitting longer, higher shots with the club stamped with a 7 on it on the driving range is nice, but it ain't relevant to scoring. And how much of a problem is the old chestnut of 'getting the ball in the air' for most players?

If you can't get in the air with a blade, I suggest you probably can't do it with a GI iron either. Also, I would have thought less spin would help the middling player to get more playable results on poor shots.

I would love to see a good sized study of scores achieved on the course across various handicaps with blades v Cavity Backs (say 50 golfers who play 10 rounds with blades, and 10 with GIs. That's if you're reading Golf Digest).

Have you ever tried to watch a guy that delivers a middle iron to the ball at 75 mph, -4 degree path, and -1 degree attack, try to hit a blade (with a high heel cg) off a tight lie? I have seen this horror show a number of times and each time I make sure there are no women and children around.

 

[gmbtempe]

Well, yes, they design for the hacker when they are selling to the hacker. Most golfers will not put the work in to get better. Some OEM's offer iron models that cover the whole spectrum- musclebacks for the studs, forged cavity for the scratch players, cast less-offsets for single digits, GI wide soles for the chops, etc, etc.

why try to get better if you can just buy clubs to fix your compensations?

 

[Virtuoso]

why try to get better if you can just buy clubs to fix your compensations?

To what extent will the clubs FIX your compensations?

Aleviate some pain and humiliation, yes.....fix?....negatory, good buddy.

 

[gmbtempe]

To what extent will the clubs FIX your compensations?

Aleviate some pain and humiliation, yes.....fix?....negatory, good buddy.

Ok, lets use the word "mitigate"

 

[Virtuoso]

Ok, lets use the word "mitigate"

For those that want to mitigate, they can buy cavity backs. For those that want to fix (by improving their technique), they can buy musclebacks. Both products are offered in the market.

 

[Lindsey Newman]

I call shenanigans. Either you have decent application of the club or you don't. My father-in-law is a 18 and there is no iron that will ever give him forward lean to the club at impact. Whether you have blades or massive GI irons the sweet spot is only so big. The forgiveness of GI irons are so minimal. Only a player who has ball turf contact can benefit. Bad moves give bad results the only forgiveness would be if a player hit off a mat or a tee. I assert that GI irons help players with good technique, but whom may not have the power they need to hit hit high.

 

[otto6457]

OK......what's the general opinion of blended sets? When I bought my 755's I was really torn between the 755's and the 735's. I loved the muscle backs in the pw-8 iron and the the progressive cavities in the longer 735 irons. I don't even remember now why I picked the 755's over the 735's.

I should have just picked up the MP-32's......Those were the sweetest feeling irons I ever hit. But I got scared and went with the 755's.

Does anyone even make a blended set anymore? That seems like a good compromise to me.

 

[EdStraker]

OK......what's the general opinion of blended sets? When I bought my 755's I was really torn between the 755's and the 735's. I loved the muscle backs in the pw-8 iron and the the progressive cavities in the longer 735 irons. I don't even remember now why I picked the 755's over the 735's.

I should have just picked up the MP-32's......Those were the sweetest feeling irons I ever hit. But I got scared and went with the 755's.

Does anyone even make a blended set anymore? That seems like a good compromise to me.

Mizuno allows you to custom order blended sets. The TGW website allows you to order specific irons from Mizuno. If you click the Customize tab for the Mizuno selections, you can order the ones you want from that specific set.

 

[ej20]

I think everyone should use blades but only from the 5 or 6 iron upwards.How many here posess a 105mph iron swing required to get a blade long iron up in the air?

 

[Richie3Jack]

Well, yes, they design for the hacker when they are selling to the hacker. Most golfers will not put the work in to get better. Some OEM's offer iron models that cover the whole spectrum- musclebacks for the studs, forged cavity for the scratch players, cast less-offsets for single digits, GI wide soles for the chops, etc, etc.

Most OEM's try to do things to muscleback designs to appeal to higher handicappers.

It wasn't too long ago that we saw pretty much every major OEM have some type of MB design irons. They usually went MB, cavity back and GI cavity back irons. Ping was usually the one OEM that didn't have muscleback and Callaway has been kinda off and on with MB's.

Now we are seeing less and less OEM's making MB's. Cleveland now offers a mixed set only if you want MB's.

I think MB's are probably tough for OEM's because they probably do not sell all that well, but if they give up on them that could leave 1 or 2 companies who would pick up a nice chunk of hte MB market. So with that and how MB specs have changed over the years, it's pretty obvious that even MB's are suceptible to compensating imprecise swings. It's just less than CB's.

Anyway, I don't believe that I generate 105 mph of clubhead speed with my irons (I haven't measured my 3-iron swing speed in awhile). A couple of months ago I checked and my driver clubhead speed on FlightScope was 109-111 mph. I doubt my 3-iron was that much. Hitting a 3-iron high isn't a problem if the mechanics are there. I don't imagine I hit it Mickelson or Daly high, but my driver swing speed isn't too far off from the PGA Tour average.

I'll leave with saying this...I don't think lesser of a golfer's ability if they use CB's. In fact, I kinda marvel at guys like Jeev Milkha Singh who use GI's and play at the level they do. For me, I need the feedback because I don't have the skill to keep things in tact. Still though, I just believe that my main priority with a shot is to hit it flush and accurately and I believe when I catch a blade flush it will consistently provide me with better results than with CB hit flush.





3JACK