Gary Player disects Hogan & Tiger swing
- Thread starter KappaRaider
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golfbulldog
New
Loss to the advertising world!!
Brian, that collage is superb piece of work! Articulate, funny ...true!!
Manzelicious!!
Brian, that collage is superb piece of work! Articulate, funny ...true!!
Manzelicious!!
mjstrong
New
Isn't that book about 6 or 7 years old now (or more)? I think that's one of the changes he's made.
mjstrong
New
But with a (Manzella) neutral grip, that angle is very slight at address, and Tiger keeps it very slight throughout the swing. In my humble opinion, this was when Tiger was not hitting it well, and everybody had theories on why. I just don't think that Tiger had totally finished his transition from his old swing to his new swing. I think that Gary has an interesting point about the effect of the wrist position on the right arm position at impact, but I think a lot of modern players swing with flat wrists and arms further away from their bodies at impact.
birdie_man
New
Tiger's left wrist is FLAT tho. There is no angle whether he feels one or not.
As for ur thoughts on Gary's thoughts.....I think it prolly has an effect.....dunno that u can use that as any kind of rule tho.
I know I have a FLW and I get my elbow very close to or on my hip at Impact.
Why...? I'm not really sure.
I would guess it has to do with my clubface control (Angled Hinge pretty well all the time), downswing plane (due to clubface control really), and posture.
Not too sure tho.
Tiger you mean?
Here (1997):
http://asafgolf.free.fr/images/golf/swings/tiger_profil1234.jpg
...
I don't think this is the swing he won his first Masters with BTW. Similar....but I think he had a weaker grip and a FLW when he won the Masters.
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mjstrong
New
No, I wouldn't apply it as a rule of any kind. I don't think that only changing the wrist set will directly affect how you start your downswing, like Gary seems to imply.
It looks like this is the same swing that he used back in '97. Or do you think that he went from flat left wrist, to cupped (slightly), and then flat again?
On a little bit of a tangent, did anybody read the John Andrisani book "Tiger's New Swing." I'd love to hear some commentary on his writing and thoughts in it, since I disagree with a lot of what he writes. I've had this experience with a couple other older Andrisani books as well. Any thoughts?
mjstrong
New
photo of Gary Player - "Perfect your Swing"
I've got the book "Perfect Your Swing" put out by Golf Digest; it's got a lot of great swing sequences in it. On page 132, you can see a shot of Gary Player at the top, and his wrist doesn't seem to have much cup in it at all. I'm not sure that Gary "practiced what he preached" so to speak. The clubface is hiddedn behind his arm, but he's using a fairly flat left wrist.
I've got the book "Perfect Your Swing" put out by Golf Digest; it's got a lot of great swing sequences in it. On page 132, you can see a shot of Gary Player at the top, and his wrist doesn't seem to have much cup in it at all. I'm not sure that Gary "practiced what he preached" so to speak. The clubface is hiddedn behind his arm, but he's using a fairly flat left wrist.
birdie_man
New
Ya I wouldn't know for sure but I know I have heard ppl say (Brian for one) that his wrist was flat at the top when he won the 1997 Masters.
In fact, I think there may be a Sports Illustrated cover that shows it. ("Masterpiece" I think is the title)
Brian Manzella
Administrator
Boy, aren't ya'll lucky you have me....
Tiger's left wrist
When I first videoed Tiger when he was 15 yrs old. UNTIL 1997 MASTERS
DEAD FLAT
Some point after the "97 Masters when silly ole Butchie was trying to remake him into the Butch-era Greg Norman (probably when the pic where taken)
Bent
Very soon after this Tiger slumped and said "I don't have it down yet," when what really happened is he went more upright and more flat than had the great run in 2000
DEAD FLAT
Masterpiece.
DEAD FLAT
Even after Haney remake...
DEAD FLAT
Ho hum.
Tiger's left wrist
When I first videoed Tiger when he was 15 yrs old. UNTIL 1997 MASTERS
DEAD FLAT
Some point after the "97 Masters when silly ole Butchie was trying to remake him into the Butch-era Greg Norman (probably when the pic where taken)
Bent
Very soon after this Tiger slumped and said "I don't have it down yet," when what really happened is he went more upright and more flat than had the great run in 2000
DEAD FLAT
Masterpiece.
DEAD FLAT
Even after Haney remake...
DEAD FLAT
Ho hum.
bcoak
New
FWIW from a recent article in GD on Tiger:
"When I started working with Hank, we had a laundry list of things we needed to work on," Woods said at a clinic earlier this fall. "Every day at the range it would be, 'OK, what are we working on today?' My posture, my grip, ball position, a whole bunch of things. Now it's down to one thing -- making sure I don't break my left wrist when I take the club back."
"When I started working with Hank, we had a laundry list of things we needed to work on," Woods said at a clinic earlier this fall. "Every day at the range it would be, 'OK, what are we working on today?' My posture, my grip, ball position, a whole bunch of things. Now it's down to one thing -- making sure I don't break my left wrist when I take the club back."
Regardless of the great players, has anyone here played worse when consciously starting the downswing with a flat left wrist (for righthanders) ? When my left wrist is flat at the top, regardless of arm plane, a decent shot will occur. If my arm plane is correct, a real good shot. I have some pictures of Claude Harmon at the top of his backswing in the late forties, when he won the masters, and his left wrist is flat as a board, just as the examples in Brian's collage.
...
Dodger,
I think you'll find a FLW can benefit your play for the simple reason it is easier on your timing.
For example, if you are a bit quick from the top with a cupped left wrist, the club has a tendency to be thrown outwards from the top of the swing plane (causing out-to-in at the bottom), whereas the same scenario with a flat left wrist, the club will be thrown down the plane...
Simple mechanics really....
You can test this with a club held horizontally in your hands out in front of you (off your right shoulder with your right forearm bent at the elbow)...
To simulate "a bit quick" simply rotate you right forearm in a clockwise direction while not allowing your left forearm to move, and watch where the clubhead goes to with the two different scenarios...
Youi will find with the cupped wrist the clubhead ends up above the hands (there is every handicappers out-to-in nightmare right there!...), but with a flat wrist it stays below or level with the hands
Dodger,
I think you'll find a FLW can benefit your play for the simple reason it is easier on your timing.
For example, if you are a bit quick from the top with a cupped left wrist, the club has a tendency to be thrown outwards from the top of the swing plane (causing out-to-in at the bottom), whereas the same scenario with a flat left wrist, the club will be thrown down the plane...
Simple mechanics really....
You can test this with a club held horizontally in your hands out in front of you (off your right shoulder with your right forearm bent at the elbow)...
To simulate "a bit quick" simply rotate you right forearm in a clockwise direction while not allowing your left forearm to move, and watch where the clubhead goes to with the two different scenarios...
Youi will find with the cupped wrist the clubhead ends up above the hands (there is every handicappers out-to-in nightmare right there!...), but with a flat wrist it stays below or level with the hands
Perfect Impact
New
When Tiger uses the word "break" his left wrist, is there any indication if he means BOW it or BEND IT BACKWARDS? Because he also pointed at the wrist dish angle at address and said he wanted to maintain THAT ANGLE. That, I believe, is what he is "working on" with HH, because it facilitates the full wristcock / wristfold at the top that ultimately provides the perfect top position for leverage. Mechanical advantage...
Brian Manzella
Administrator
Mr Inconsistent
Banned
Gary Player advocates a bent left wrist and says Tiger should not have such a flat left wrist. Senile? Is he aware he played his whole career with a flat left wrist?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfT88wW2cJ0
Here is a funny clip too, check out the 2:20 mark for Gary's flat left wrist. And also check out Gary getting mad because Graham Marsh busted him for teeing it up ahead of the tee markers. Fun all around.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nlU3R38X6Ro
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfT88wW2cJ0
Here is a funny clip too, check out the 2:20 mark for Gary's flat left wrist. And also check out Gary getting mad because Graham Marsh busted him for teeing it up ahead of the tee markers. Fun all around.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nlU3R38X6Ro
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Brian Manzella
Administrator
Let this thread DIE!
Gary Playe seems like a very nice man.
I hope I get to meet him one day.
However, just like I said in another post, sometimes NON-TEACHERS like Mr. Player need to NOT BE ASKED to comment on SOMETHING THEY KNOW NOTHING ABOUT!!!!!
This video is one of the worse things ever done in golf.
Let it die.
Gary Playe seems like a very nice man.
I hope I get to meet him one day.
However, just like I said in another post, sometimes NON-TEACHERS like Mr. Player need to NOT BE ASKED to comment on SOMETHING THEY KNOW NOTHING ABOUT!!!!!
This video is one of the worse things ever done in golf.
Let it die.
mjstrong
New
video confirmation
Yup, dead flat at the top (2:21 in the video). Gary's a bit of a quirky guy, it seems. Like Brian said, even great players are not necessarily good teachers.
Yup, dead flat at the top (2:21 in the video). Gary's a bit of a quirky guy, it seems. Like Brian said, even great players are not necessarily good teachers.
Mr Inconsistent
Banned
It's interesting how some great players, like Gary apparently, know how to swing the club very efficiently but they don't really know "what" they are doing. They just know "how" to do it. This is very interesting to me.
birdie_man
New
Ahahahaha.
Good job.
Hey BTW what is with Gary Player's head in his downswing?
Is that just a quirk....or is he trying super hard to keep it down? (seems like something like GP would do)
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