Golf Impact Physics

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Brian showed a refreshing willingness to change his mind and I thought it to be useful to put in one post all the necessary information for anyone who wants to make up his own mind with regard to matters dealing with the [size=+1] physics of impact [/size].

Colliding objects, during impact, do generate very large forces over a very short period of time and therefore the influence of any external force, such as gravity, muscular exertions, etc., on impact duration, on motions/velocities/accelerations, during the impact interval, can be safely ignored.

Scientific experiments have shown this to be true for various sports such as, for instance, tennis, golf and baseball. The various mental constructs regarding impact are usually implying that we can do something about impact but actually are dealing only with optimizing pre-impact conditions due to the intrinsic impact physics and human reaction time.

One basic problem is indeed that of the very different time scales involved. Human reaction time is about 0.2 seconds. Impact duration is about 0.0004 seconds. It is simply beyond our sensory perception limits even if we might feel very strongly that we are controlling conditions during impact.

It is perhaps useful to compare impact with an explosion. The downswing is than simply a gathering of energy to be dispensed with in a flash during the explosive encounter of clubhead with ball during impact. All we can do is optimize the parameters before the explosive encounter but not during the explosion itself.

mandrin
 
Brian showed a refreshing willingness to change his mind and I thought it to be useful to put in one post all the necessary information for anyone who wants to make up his own mind with regard to matters dealing with the [size=+1] physics of impact [/size].

Colliding objects, during impact, do generate very large forces over a very short period of time and therefore the influence of any external force, such as gravity, muscular exertions, etc., on impact duration, on motions/velocities/accelerations, during the impact interval, can be safely ignored.

Scientific experiments have shown this to be true for various sports such as, for instance, tennis, golf and baseball. The various mental constructs regarding impact are usually implying that we can do something about impact but actually are dealing only with optimizing pre-impact conditions due to the intrinsic impact physics and human reaction time.

One basic problem is indeed that of the very different time scales involved. Human reaction time is about 0.2 seconds. Impact duration is about 0.0004 seconds. It is simply beyond our sensory perception limits even if we might feel very strongly that we are controlling conditions during impact.

It is perhaps useful to compare impact with an explosion. The downswing is than simply a gathering of energy to be dispensed with in a flash during the explosive encounter of clubhead with ball during impact. All we can do is optimize the parameters before the explosive encounter but not during the explosion itself.

mandrin

mandrin....your "mandrin analysis" file was on dr. aaron zick's mac computer during his presentation during the recent golfing machine summit......i had to point this out to brian during the presentation....he smiled broadly when he saw it...

dr. zick complemented your analysis and said that his own analysis took your numbers and went a few steps further....all of dr. zick's information is supposed to be available on the golfing machine website soon according to joe daniels...
 
Very good thesis

How about the type of ball used affecting the impact of physics? Hard, soft, 3 layers, 2 layers...

Also, how does the swing speed affecting the smash factor? (ball speed over club speed) What I meant is that my golf instructor can hit my driver with higher smash factor than I do but with less club speed.
 
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Very good thesis
What I meant is that my golf instructor can hit my driver with higher smash factor than I do but with less club speed.

How do you kbow this? Most commercial launch monitors DO NOT measure ball speed and pre impact clubhead speed. Therefore there are calculations being made which can effect this outcome based upon the manufacturers expectations of a golfer's swing
 
One basic problem is indeed that of the very different time scales involved. Human reaction time is about 0.2 seconds. Impact duration is about 0.0004 seconds. It is simply beyond our sensory perception limits even if we might feel very strongly that we are controlling conditions during impact.

So what am I feeling when I absolutely smack a driver on the sweet spot?
 
Enlightenment

One basic problem is indeed that of the very different time scales involved. Human reaction time is about 0.2 seconds. Impact duration is about 0.0004 seconds. It is simply beyond our sensory perception limits even if we might feel very strongly that we are controlling conditions during impact.

So what am I feeling when I absolutely smack a driver on the sweet spot?

Nirvana
 
One basic problem is indeed that of the very different time scales involved. Human reaction time is about 0.2 seconds. Impact duration is about 0.0004 seconds. It is simply beyond our sensory perception limits even if we might feel very strongly that we are controlling conditions during impact.

So what am I feeling when I absolutely smack a driver on the sweet spot?

Then you woke up and realized it was a dream....:D
 

bts

New
nice jump

......................

.........my golf instructor can hit my driver with higher smash factor than I do but with less club speed.
because his ball "jumps" better at separation off a higher acceleration clubhead at impact, despite of slower speed.
 
Also, how does the swing speed affecting the smash factor? (ball speed over club speed) What I meant is that my golf instructor can hit my driver with higher smash factor than I do but with less club speed.

Ah yes good question mon(deoclub).

(can I just call u 'mon' now tho?...it's funnier...:D)

...

Something I've wondered myself but forgot to ask...

mandrin...this one been covered yet??
 
smash factor

birdie_man said:
Ah yes good question mon(deoclub).

Something I've wondered myself but forgot to ask...

mandrin...this one been covered yet??
Probably, but am preparing something more elaborate.
 
Very informative and well structured article Mandrin. My mind is in turmoil though. Hard to shed old comforts.

Question: in this very short interval of .0004 sec, it has been said that the clubhead moves (ideally) from an open to square position during the .0004 seconds. Is this closing rate measureable/observable?

In watching the impact sequence in the article the clubhead remains stable and appears to stay square (I assume that the club is clamped solid in this sequence, with no rotation).
 
Brian showed a refreshing willingness to change his mind and I thought it to be useful to put in one post all the necessary information for anyone who wants to make up his own mind with regard to matters dealing with the [size=+1] physics of impact [/size].

Colliding objects, during impact, do generate very large forces over a very short period of time and therefore the influence of any external force, such as gravity, muscular exertions, etc., on impact duration, on motions/velocities/accelerations, during the impact interval, can be safely ignored.

Scientific experiments have shown this to be true for various sports such as, for instance, tennis, golf and baseball. The various mental constructs regarding impact are usually implying that we can do something about impact but actually are dealing only with optimizing pre-impact conditions due to the intrinsic impact physics and human reaction time.

One basic problem is indeed that of the very different time scales involved. Human reaction time is about 0.2 seconds. Impact duration is about 0.0004 seconds. It is simply beyond our sensory perception limits even if we might feel very strongly that we are controlling conditions during impact.

It is perhaps useful to compare impact with an explosion. The downswing is than simply a gathering of energy to be dispensed with in a flash during the explosive encounter of clubhead with ball during impact. All we can do is optimize the parameters before the explosive encounter but not during the explosion itself.

mandrin
Good info mandrin, but how can we use this to improve our ball striking? Does it mean we shouldn't work on Impact Fix, but just what happens before that? Also, does it mean we should not try to achieve that feel of a "heavy impact" that so many TGM teachers teach? Should we just stop trying to accelerate by the time the club gets to impact?

Thank you!
 
Golf is more a paradox than a science

tongzilla said:
Good info mandrin, but how can we use this to improve our ball striking? Does it mean we shouldn't work on Impact Fix, but just what happens before that? Also, does it mean we should not try to achieve that feel of a "heavy impact" that so many TGM teachers teach? Should we just stop trying to accelerate by the time the club gets to impact?

Thank you!
Tongzilla,

HK viewed the golfer as a machine. That is fine and useful but it only goes so far. It is a nevertheless a huge step forward considering the usual golf instruction and it is quite understandable that HK tried to push his approach to its limit, lkely in reaction to the type of instruction being dispensed at his time.

Any experienced teacher, such as Brian, will probably have many cases of giving pupils almost opposite instructions trying nevertheless to obtain the same result. Human golfers are not machines but very complex ensembles where emotions, thought, fears, concepts, etc., are by far dominating the machine like parts.

I am quite aware that for many the strict code and rigorous formalism of The Golfing Machine is very appealing and after having spent many hours to decipher its meaning dislike the science aspects being critiqued a bit, but science has no soul, it is based on facts. HK did not perform neither theoretical nor experimental research to back up his scientific ideas.

You are, I am quite sure, acutely aware of human reaction time. Thinking about doing something just prior to impact is just too late; better think about right from the top of the swing, or even before. To make a long story very short, I don’t feel there isn’t anything to be changed once accepting the facts about impact. Hence, as far as I am concerned, all that TGM stands for is perfectly valid as instruction, but not quite as scientific explanation.
 
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small but important

Sonic_Doom said:
Very informative and well structured article Mandrin. My mind is in turmoil though. Hard to shed old comforts.

Question: in this very short interval of .0004 sec, it has been said that the clubhead moves (ideally) from an open to square position during the .0004 seconds. Is this closing rate measureable/observable?

In watching the impact sequence in the article the clubhead remains stable and appears to stay square (I assume that the club is clamped solid in this sequence, with no rotation).
Sonic_Doom,

You can estimate the angular velocity of the clubhead by observing appropriate high speed swing sequences. However one can make a rather crude approximate calculation to give some idea of the order of magnitude.

Let’s just assume the average angular velocity to be 70 rad/sec close to impact. This will rotate the clubhead 90 deg over a distance of 1m for a clubhead speed of 160 km/h. During 0.0004 sec this will result in a rotation for the clubhead of 1.7 degs.

This is perhaps appearing to be a small rotation but with regard to clubface alignment rather important especially for a driver with the very large carries nowadays obtained by many golfers. A misalignment of 1.7 deg with a carry of 300 m means a lateral deviation of about 8.5 m.
 
How do you kbow this? Most commercial launch monitors DO NOT measure ball speed and pre impact clubhead speed. Therefore there are calculations being made which can effect this outcome based upon the manufacturers expectations of a golfer's swing

My coach's launch monitor does give such information, however I am not sure the exact model that he use. All that I know is that it is run in Mac.
 
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